| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | 什么是母语？ Thread poster: Phil Hand
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Alan Wang 
China
Local time: 14:03
English to Chinese
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| the latest development | Jul 13, 2012 |
Now we are going with logic I guess. I like it. This is a better way to show that someone has got any scientific training, certainly better than continually digging up old threads or forum rules for the whole world to read, as if no one knows here is a conglomeration of the world’s most eminent translators who work on something of $ ^@*! dollars per word (wow!), and also the suggestion adding to the stir that someone might just steal precious from someone else!
 ... See more Now we are going with logic I guess. I like it. This is a better way to show that someone has got any scientific training, certainly better than continually digging up old threads or forum rules for the whole world to read, as if no one knows here is a conglomeration of the world’s most eminent translators who work on something of $ ^@*! dollars per word (wow!), and also the suggestion adding to the stir that someone might just steal precious from someone else!
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| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 14:03
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
ysun wrote:
但是，中文为母语的人中也有很多中翻英水平高的人，只是由于种种原因（例如价高），人家不用而已。
这个数字游戏中，我们俩都没法证明是非，但我难以肯定以上一句话。我做这个做了7年多，到现在为止，顶多遇到过一个名副其实的“水平高”的中文为母语的中译英翻译。我承认他们的存在，但我觉得他们占少数，少得可怜，少的微不足道。再次强调：绝大部分的中文为母语的译者远远高估了自己的英文水平，再加一句：绝大部分的中文为母语的译者互相之间的评价也远远高估了彼此的英文水平。不是说称职，仅说基本语言能力，非常匮乏。
NB. 我说的是非英语母语的人，当然像Rita、Steve等有双母语的人不包括。
你说我“还是坚持把这个问题看作母语者和非母语者的对杀”，你的根据是什么呢？那可不是我的观点。
那么，我道歉。如果我理解错，那是我不够仔细看你的帖子，对不起。
我为什么形成这个误解，是因为你在帖子中专门提出你见过的native English speaker的翻译错误，很少看到你提出中文为母语的人所犯的错误。给人家的感觉是native speaker 的问题重重，汉语者似乎没有问题。在我看来，事情相反。当然native English speaker会有误解误译的时候，但我们看到的问题绝大部分出自汉语者手下，因为一、中国人承担大部分的工作，二、中国人的稿子中基本上每一句话都有语言错误。不像你提出的native English翻译的个别意思偏差，而是整篇一片红。所以呢，你重复强调英文母语者的问题，我觉得属于抓小放大。我并不是说英语母语者一切都好，但如果是提高整体水平为目标，英语母语者的问题无关紧要，不值得重视。
你说“那次讨论中的大部分人是在欧洲标准的熏陶下培养出来的，基本不做姆译外”。我觉得你说这话未免有些主观。你根据什么肯定他们不做母译外呢？翻译公司也不都是死守教条的。英国伦敦某家“在欧洲标准的熏陶下培养出来的”的著名翻译公司，就经常要我为他们翻译中文专利。
可能吧，我并不认识那些人，没什么证据，只是凭他们自己的说法而已。但我觉得你自己的经验跟他们的关系不是很大，我们是特殊语种，中译英的英美人才非常稀有，翻译社不得不找中国人。但德译英、法译英等的英美人才多，一般都是找他们做母语者翻译。母语者翻译并不是幻想，是欧洲笔译、口译界的日常工作模式（比如说，欧洲的口译很多是ACCC，输入多语，输出一语）。
反正，看来我确实误解你的观点，我再次道歉，我们之间吵架并不值得，可能是我太敏感一点。
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 01:03
English to Chinese
+ ...
首先，从我这方面来说，我并不认为我是在与你吵架，只是争论问题而已。吵架与争论还是有很大区别的。所以，你不必道歉。
Phil Hand wrote: ysun wrote:
但是，中文为母语的人中也有很多中翻英水平高的人，只是由于种种原因（例如价高），人家不用而已。 这个数字游戏中，我们俩都没法证明是非，但我难以肯定以上一句话。
不错，在这场数字游戏中，我们俩都没法证明谁是谁非，一个人的观点不一定就能代表其他人的观点，也不一定就能客观地反映事实。就像在另一场数字游戏中，我们很难确定 Chinese-English translators 中虚报 native language 的确切人数一样。不过我们至少可以很容易地确定，这种人并非如你所说是 “vast majority”。 甚至在那个 mega thread 里，有识之士也认为这样的 Chinese translators 只不过是 “a few”。本来这事与我毫无关系，我只是想为我的同胞们说句公道话而已。
Phil Hand wrote:
我为什么形成这个误解，是因为你在帖子中专门提出你见过的native English speaker的翻译错误，很少看到你提出中文为母语的人所犯的错误。
... 你重复强调英文母语者的问题，我觉得属于抓小放大。
你有这样的看法，我很遗憾。但我并非专门挑我所见过的 native English speakers 的翻译错误。我只是想表明这样一个观点：native English speakers 并非是保证中翻英质量的充分条件。我与任何 native English speakers 都无怨无仇，我也从不认为他们会夺我的饭碗。翻译市场如此之大，谁要是认为某些翻译能夺了另一些翻译的饭碗，则是一种非常无知的看法，也是一种缺乏自信的表现。至于汉语为母语者在中译英时所犯的错误，我过去曾多次发表过我的浅见，也许你没看见。
确实，远远高估自己英文水平的中文为母语者确实存在，就如同远远高估自己中文水平的英文为母语者确实存在一样。某些远远高估自己中文水平的英文为母语者也非常匮乏基本汉语能力。不过，我从不挑他们所写中文里的毛病，因为我知道，他们学中文与中国人学英文一样，都不容易。
Phil Hand wrote:
我们是特殊语种，中译英的英美人才非常稀有，翻译社不得不找中国人。
我完全同意这一点，这正是我一再强调的。尤其是，在某些科技领域，翻译社想找具有一定科技背景的中译英的英美人，就更不容易。某些英语为母语者翻译的科技资料并非只是个别意思偏差，而是根本就不能用。你也许忽视了Jen Rouse 的这段话：
http://www.proz.com/post/1975133#1975133
Jen Rouse wrote:
But as a proofreader I take on lots of texts written by people I know to be unambiguously native speaking - that is, they were born, raised and educated in England - but who write extremely poorly. (The writers obviously know this, or else they wouldn't be paying me to do it.) Still, from where I'm sitting, there's much more to good writing than native proficiency. Clarity of thought and phrase, subject knowledge, accuracy, a wide syntactical and lexical range, confidence with nuance and subtext, the ability to anticipate reader responses, and, in the case of translation, the ability to circumnavigate the constant non-translatable elements of a foreign text - all these are features of good writing in any field, and without wishing to undermine the argument, hiring a native speaker does not guarantee they'll do a good job. I much prefer to proofread something in poor English but with exceptional subject knowledge that withstands exhaustive research,…
如我前面所说，这场讨论难以产生切实可行的办法。因此，何必太执著？
[Edited at 2012-07-13 05:07 GMT]
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 14:03
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
ysun wrote:
我只是想为我的同胞们说句公道话而已。
Seriously? You want to turn this into a China-versus-the-world thing? That kind of attitude is half the problem.
我只是想表明这样一个观点：native English speakers 并非是保证中翻英质量的充分条件。
没错，我的问题是：鉴于无论是在这里还是在大帖塔里，没有任何人主张母语是充分条件这种歪理，那么，你为什么想要这么“表明”？向谁表明？
没有任何人觉得随便抓一个美国佬，就是个好翻译。但是，母语能力跟翻译能力是有关系的。
远远高估自己英文水平的中文为母语者确实存在，就如同远远高估自己中文水平的英文为母语者确实存在一样。
这不成立。首先，从绝对数来讲，中文为母语的多，英文为母语的少。你否定这点很奇怪：你同意英美人才稀有，你同意中国人占大多数，你同意有普遍的质量问题，那么，中国译者质量问题多基本上是个必然的结论。
但不仅如此，相对来讲，中国译者的问题也多。首先是我上面说过的目标语言盲点；加上国内市场费率低的问题；加上国内泛滥的低质量工具书和软件；加上近期的“以中式英语为自豪”的谬论；等等。反而英美人一般身处重视质量问题的工作环境，比如说想通过ATA或IOL考试的人一定要达到很客观的标准。
高估自己中文水平的英文为母语者存在（我也跟他们摩擦过），但他们不是我们行业的大问题。
如我前面所说，这场讨论难以产生切实可行的办法。因此，何必太执著？
这也是问题的所在。事情难，就不干。如果我们行业中比较出色和成功的译者都这么说，那什么问题就不用解决了，我们大家都马虎吧。听起来跟我们亲爱的大陆领导人同一个口气。
这些问题可以解决。没有必要接受差的译文。目前，很多跨国企业在中国的经营模式被翻译问题扭曲了，在我们厦门的一个分公司，美国老板来访，谁为他翻译呢？公司CEO！这种笑话在这里太常见了，官方文件都没法看，因为英文版本无法看懂，不得不叫律师看中文版，然后解释。本应该是翻译任务变成律师咨询任务！
我上面说的，中国早晚要接轨，为了接轨她需要一个专业能力强的翻译队伍。你可以漠不关心，但对我来说我是希望参与这场建设工作。
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ysun
United States
Local time: 01:03
English to Chinese
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Phil Hand wrote: ysun wrote:
我只是想为我的同胞们说句公道话而已。
Seriously? You want to turn this into a China-versus-the-world thing? That kind of attitude is half the problem.
我之所以说“我只是想为我的同胞们说句公道话而已”，那是因为我觉得你所说的如下这段话毫无根据：
http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_suggestions/227485-should_“native_language”_claims_be_verified-page8.html#1967387
Phil Hand wrote:
Please go and check out Chinese-English translators. The vast majority of those who claim to be English native are just lying. It's not a kinda maybe situation. It's just a lie to get eligibility for jobs. I would certainly like to see some enforcement against that kind of behaviour.
在论坛上毫无根据地随意给某一族群的翻译同行抹黑，这在 ProZ.com 历史上恐怕还是第一次。在你开这个专题之前，你就在那边说了这段话（6月22日）。既然这是属于 Chinese-English translators 的问题，那你为什么不在此也旗帜鲜明地指出这一点呢？如果你说话有确凿根据，那还顾忌什么？ 此外， "lie" 和 "lying" 这样的帽子是不能随便乱扣的，难道欧洲文化不是这样熏陶的吗？
你似乎很喜欢使用“绝大部分”这个词。例如，“绝大部分的中文为母语的译者远远高估了自己的英文水平，再加一句：绝大部分的中文为母语的译者互相之间的评价也远远高估了彼此的英文水平。”以及“我们看到的问题绝大部分出自汉语者手下”。绝大部分这个词可不能只凭个人的想象而毫无根据地乱用。至于是否“远远高估”，那也不是你一个人说了就算的，除非你是翻译权威或除非相应权威机构赋予你评判权以及客观标准。
什么叫做 “China-versus-the-world”? 难道你就代表 the world 吗？ 请问，你这种逻辑又是什么 problem？
Phil Hand wrote:
没有任何人主张母语是充分条件这种歪理，那么，你为什么想要这么“表明”？向谁表明？
真的“没有任何人主张母语是充分条件这种歪理”吗？那就当我误解了吧！但是你着什么急呢？
Phil Hand wrote: 远远高估自己英文水平的中文为母语者确实存在，就如同远远高估自己中文水平的英文为母语者确实存在一样。 这不成立。首先，从绝对数来讲，中文为母语的多，英文为母语的少。你否定这点很奇怪：你同意英美人才稀有，你同意中国人占大多数，你同意有普遍的质量问题，那么，中国译者质量问题多基本上是个必然的结论。 ... 高估自己中文水平的英文为母语者存在（我也跟他们摩擦过），但他们不是我们行业的大问题。
为什么我那句话不成立？“存在与不存在”和“多与少”属于不同的范畴，难道你不理解这一点吗？这种人哪怕只存在一个，那也是确实存在。至于人数多少则是另一回事儿。你说“高估自己中文水平的英文为母语者存在（我也跟他们摩擦过），但他们不是我们行业的大问题”。这说明连你自己也承认这种人的存在。你岂非自相矛盾？对于某一句话，如果你说它不成立，同时却又肯定它的后半段。那是不是就意味着那不成立的就只是前半段？至于“高估自己中文水平的英文为母语者”究竟是我们行业的大问题还是小问题，那又属于另一个范畴。你的逻辑是不是有点混乱？
Phil Hand wrote:
我上面说的，中国早晚要接轨，为了接轨她需要一个专业能力强的翻译队伍。你可以漠不关心，但对我来说我是希望参与这场建设工作。
我并非对翻译素质、翻译质量问题漠不关心，而是认为每个人首先要从自己切实做起。中国的接轨问题，首先应该由“亲爱的大陆领导人”去着急。如果你也着急，那就请继续关心吧。我对擅长说教的“亲爱的大陆领导人”没有任何兴趣。我可要睡觉了。祝你成功！
我发现我们之间确实很难沟通。从我这方面来说，我也确实不想与你吵架。那就不要再浪费时间了吧！
[Edited at 2012-07-14 00:51 GMT]
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 01:03
Chinese to English
+ ...
Yueyin and Phil,
I agree with the both of you. When we start playing the numbers game, it quickly becomes a slippery slope of speculation. From my very limited exposure to the translation market by hanging out in this forum, deliberate misrepresentation of one's qualifications for the most part doesn't seem to be a serious problem, either past or present. But what goes on on a larger scale is anyone's guess, I don't think even experts like you two could say for sure. The extent... See more Yueyin and Phil,
I agree with the both of you. When we start playing the numbers game, it quickly becomes a slippery slope of speculation. From my very limited exposure to the translation market by hanging out in this forum, deliberate misrepresentation of one's qualifications for the most part doesn't seem to be a serious problem, either past or present. But what goes on on a larger scale is anyone's guess, I don't think even experts like you two could say for sure. The extent of the problem is only an estimate, or a perception based on past experience at best.
I think sometimes when we make a point, we tend to exaggerate a little bit just for effect. I suggest we try to discount that in our discussions. Incidentally, that's exactly one of the reasons I constantly edit my own postings - a lot of times I find what I said off-the-cuff very sloppy, prompting the urge to modify what I initially blurted out just to be more accurate or just to avoid misunderstanding. I don't think I'm the only one in this regard. Everyone occasionally says something that they afterwards realize isn't all that rigorous. Jen Rouse mentioned in her post that a good wordsmith ought to be able to anticipate a reader's response. I think it applies somewhat in this context too. Yet daily life is hectic; and everyone is busy. We can't expect each other to be always on our toes, and be ready to defend whatever casual remark(s) we make while trying to make a point.
I suggest we give each other some leeway, and allow for some handwaving or inaccuracies, or even the occasional mistake for that matter. Like we all acknowledged, we're basically on the same page. And like Phil said before, none of us are part of the problem; we're part of the solution.
[Edited at 2012-07-14 09:50 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 01:03
Chinese to English
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Phil Hand wrote:
... 加上近期的“以中式英语为自豪”的谬论 ...
我对如今中国国内情况的了解都是这儿一点、那儿一点，点点滴滴积累起来的。 所以当初 nigerose 转贴这篇文章我印象挺深。我对文章的内容非常不以为然，当时还跟了不少帖，基本上是不同意撰写者在文章中所报导的某些人鼓吹、提倡中式英语的看法的。 Phil 这么一提，使我猛然想起这篇文章。 假如这种趋势真是成为一种潮流的话, meaning it gains traction, 确实是一个问题： 试想，大家都说这种洋泾浜的英语， 不以为耻， 反以为荣，将是何种混乱状况？ （就跟如今国内有些人乱用汉语的一些情况差不多）I can understand the frustration, or even the resentment of some of the English-speaking expatriates living and working in China. To some of them I imagine it could be downright infuriating.
http://www.proz.com/post/1211333#1211333
When you're surrounded by incompetency in everyday life or work, of course you'd tend to want to vent. Perhaps we could all identify with that in one way or another. So I say let's cut each other some slack in these discussions.
[Edited at 2012-07-14 09:04 GMT]
| | | | pkchan
United States
Local time: 02:03
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
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| 降一下溫，回歸到討論的主體 | Jul 13, 2012 |
要談母語，不離是指 Proficiency Level。如聲稱是達母語精煉水平，首先要對照一下∶
ILR Level 5 - Native or bilingual proficiency（http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILR_scale）
Native or bilingual proficiency is the fifth level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-5 or level 5. A person at this level is described as follows:
has a speaking proficiency equivalent to that of an educated native speaker
has complete fluen... See more 要談母語，不離是指 Proficiency Level。如聲稱是達母語精煉水平，首先要對照一下∶
ILR Level 5 - Native or bilingual proficiency（http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILR_scale）
Native or bilingual proficiency is the fifth level in the scale. This level is sometimes referred to as S-5 or level 5. A person at this level is described as follows:
has a speaking proficiency equivalent to that of an educated native speaker
has complete fluency in the language, such that speech on all levels is fully accepted by educated native speakers in all of its features, including breadth of vocabulary and idiom, colloquialisms, and pertinent cultural references.
Native speaker (Mother tongue) （http://french.about.com/library/weekly/aa072701b.htm）
Someone who has spoken the language from at least the age of 5 (this age limit is subject to some debate: I've heard theories that a native speaker can have started learning the language as late as any time up to puberty). In theory, understands essentially everything in the language: all vocabulary, complicated grammatical structures, cultural references, and dialects. Has a native (i.e., invisible, "normal" in his/her region) accent.
這是隨便在網上找到對母語精煉程度的標準，請注意，不是公認的標準，但是起碼可作參考。如認為自己是接近的話，大可以用“母語”或“接近母語”作為標榜，否則“虛報”或作“虛假的陳述”，便有違職業道德或專業操手。至於對某種業務上的認識，達精煉水平，安作別話，高低易見，應不屬這條 thread 的討論範圍。 ▲ Collapse
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 01:03
Chinese to English
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| I suggest we get away from generalizing | Jul 13, 2012 |
and painting everyone with a broad brush, 'cause everyone has their individual background and achievements.
One thing that should be obvious to everybody is that Yueyin and Phil both have impeccable credentials in their own way.
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wherestip wrote:
I suggest we give each other some leeway, and allow for some handwaving or inaccuracies, or even the occasional mistake for that matter. Like we all acknowledged, we're basically on the same page. And like Phil said before, none of us are part of the problem; we're part of the solution.
[Edited at 2012-07-13 23:17 GMT]
热贴讨论，感谢Phil发表这一值得广泛讨论的深度话题，以及ysun, Alan等的积极参与的专业精神和认真态度。有时候总在想，我们发表观点时若是能够多关注一下“享受”争论的过程，而不是去尽力求取完全一致的认识结果，参与各方是不是可能会少一些个性化的东西？这里，大家都是专业翻译工作者，更是普普通通、有血有肉且具有复杂情感的人，若我们努力做到以“争而不斗”的态度看待不同的见解和观点，是否可以避免热烈的争论演化成激烈的情绪化交锋？
ProZ.com中文论坛有如一只海上航行的大船，船行一路，难免经历风雨颠簸。最重要的是，我们毕竟已经在这同一条船上。除了共赏海上的极致美景，还需要大家彼此提醒，相互照应，一起驾驭好这只希望之舟，见证它载着所有的真诚、善意和良好愿望，驶向繁荣的明天和成功的彼岸！（特此感谢wherestip和pkchan）
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 14:03
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER | 难得抽出一个下午的时间陪宝宝玩 | Jul 14, 2012 |
所以心情特别开心。
wherestip wrote:
I suggest we give each other some leeway
好的，不争了。
"Yueyin and Phil both have impeccable credentials in their own way"
Thank you for the compliment. Of course, none of my comments were in any way targeted at ysun (or any participants in this conversation).
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 01:03
English to Chinese
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote: 所以心情特别开心。 wherestip wrote:
I suggest we give each other some leeway
好的，不争了。 "Yueyin and Phil both have impeccable credentials in their own way" Thank you for the compliment. Of course, none of my comments were in any way targeted at ysun (or any participants in this conversation).
我估计你无法反驳我上面的意见。当然，你根本就指责不到我，因为我从未声称我的 native language 是 English，也从未声称我的 English 是 near native。我的英语当然不如那些 highly educated native English speakers，但足以使我能够胜任有关科技领域的中译英任务。再说，尽管不断有客户主动来找我搞中译英，我的工作仍以英译中为主。能够得到客户的好评，能够不断地见到回头客和新客户，我就心满意足。我根本就不在乎其他人说三道四。凡是有能力搞中译英的 native Chinese speakers，也不要在乎任何人说三道四。
在那个 mega thread 中，某些 native speakers of English 把他们面临的 $0.02 - 0.03/word 低价归咎于 non-native speakers 与他们竞争。实际上，他们并未找到问题的根源。问题的根源就在于有许多不称职的人在以低价进行恶性竞争，其中包括 native English speakers 和 non-native English speakers。以中国大陆的英译中翻译市场为例，难道我们能把那里流行的低价归咎于 native English speakers 参与恶性竞争吗？显然不能。如果找不到问题的根源，即使硬性规定只有英语为母语者才能搞中译英，那也于事无补，仍难改变中翻英质量低下的局面。与其用大量的时间和精力去琢磨如何 verify native language claims，倒还不如用这时间和精力去找点活干。
最后，谢谢 James 和 Steve！
[Edited at 2012-07-14 08:51 GMT]
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 14:03
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Edited - moderators called to dispute, I'm voluntarily removing my posts.
[Edited at 2012-07-14 06:45 GMT]
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 14:03
Chinese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Edited - moderators called to dispute, I'm voluntarily removing my posts.
[Edited at 2012-07-14 06:47 GMT]
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 01:03
English to Chinese
+ ...
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