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Off topic: 泰晤士(TIMES)四合院儿
Thread poster: QHE

pkchan  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:02
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非常好! Sep 4

[quote]David Shen wrote:

David Shen wrote:
wherestip wrote
Sixteen Tons
(Tennessee Ernie Ford)

《十六吨》
田纳西·厄尼·福特

Some people say a man is made outta mud
A poor man's made outta muscle and blood
Muscle and blood and skin and bones
A mind that's weak and a back that's strong
|
有道是人出尘土。
一身骨骼加肌肤,
贫者除此全无,
心软背硬把日子过。

Revised in bold, original in italics.

有人说人原本是尘土。
世上千般穷人全无,
那一身筋骨和肌肤,
心软腰硬就凭血肉。


You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter, don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
|
装十六吨,挣得好多?
背债愈重,一日虚渡。
圣彼得,别招此魂去,
尚欠公司债务未赎。

|
装了十六吨,又能挣好多?
背债反而重,一日又虚度。
圣彼得啊,你别招我去,
魂还在公司,我欠有债务。


I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine
I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine
I loaded sixteen tons of number nine coal
And the straw boss said "well, bless my soul"
|
生之初,无日出,
拎起煤铲矿上做。
装了十六吨九号煤,
工头称道“你辛苦”。

|
出生之日没日出,
能提煤铲了就矿上做。
装了十六吨九号煤,
工头称道“你辛苦”。


I was born one mornin', it was drizzlin' rain
Fightin' and trouble are my middle name
I was raised in the canebrake by an ol' mama lion
Can't no high-toned woman make me walk the line
|
降生之晨小雨星,
打架淘气从未宁。
丛生草窝学虎妈,
不进深闺娇娘家。

|
我降生那早晨小雨零星,
从小打架淘气不得安宁。
长在草窝我学虎妈,
进不得深闺娇娘家。


If you see me comin', better step aside
A lotta men didn't, a lotta men died
One fist of iron, the other of steel
If the right one don't get you then the left one will
|
看到我来你让开,
不让开的全玩完。
一手是铁一手钢,
左拳没中你吃右拳。

|
看到我来你让开,
不让开的全玩完。
一手是铁一手钢,
左拳没中你吃右拳。


Looking foreword to critique and improved versions, please.


挂了一天,没人接应?论坛成独唱,处境实可怜。
期待高见,更欢迎拍砖!

一时雅兴,难免粗浅。今天回头一看,先自我批评一下:

1__首先,风格不一致。
有的是口语句、有的象三字经、有的象和尚念经、有的象瘪三打诨......

2__其次,用词欠考虑。
几个错别字如:“虚渡”_wrong; 虚度_right. 欠考虑的词有 bones 译成“骨骼” ;此处应该用“筋骨”比较好。还有 a back that's strong 译成“背硬”;此处应该用“腰”字。因为“背”在中文里有“背后有靠山”的意思。某人“背硬”得的话就说明他很有来头。这恰恰与本歌词原义相反。歌词说的是穷人除了心肠软,腰板子硬,别的就没什么了。

生活在讲英语的国度,常觉得洋人腰背不分!“Back”似乎连腰带背(所以一定要跟医生讲明白:“哎呦,我那腰啊!疼死我了!Ouch! my lower-back is killing me!”)而中国人从来不会将“腰”和“背”混为一谈。“腰”是“腰”,同时也代表骨气,如“不为五斗米折腰。”当然,这首歌词的作者是否有暗示骨气之意,不同译者只能见仁见智了。

3__再则,是否适合当歌词来吟唱,没把握。
初译只是将大意表达出来而已。我听了好几遍 Youtube 那个链接,第二个听起来比较清楚。这样不今不古的句子是否适合当歌词来吟唱,要请会唱的人试试才知道效果如何。

也许这几天没人象我这么闲,都忙着攒钱呢。大家别忘了劳逸结合。就像这歌词里唱的:“装了十六吨,又能挣好多?”

翻译辛苦翻译知,还求字字出玑珠。
糊了双眼折了腰,换来三斗还是稻。

可见要出真正的好译作,待到不愁稻米下锅的时候可能把握大一些。哪要到什么时候啊?

各位翻译劳工节快乐!


A++


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David Shen  Identity Verified
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您客气了 Sep 5

wherestip wrote:
曲高和寡


Steve,

这图很有趣!
可你说的实乃恭维之词,与讨论无益。再说这一曲原属“乡村”,也谈不上“高”。整个儿的美国文化能称“高”的实在不多,这儿既出不了《神曲》,也没出《天问》。充其量出了个朗费罗和马克吐温。但这并非是说美国文化没有吸引,至今它之所以能大行其道,就因为它是“下里巴人”。所以,愿选择在此生活的,骨子里都是个下里巴人。正因为我喜欢很土的歌,才有此雅兴。

不过等了一天没别人,出来的仍旧是史蒂文,先谢过!能跟您老兄一唱一和,倒也有点意思。但这论坛就我们这几个在这样唱下去,恐怕比我感到是在“独唱”不更可怜?

Cheers!


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David Shen  Identity Verified
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品茗赏花,雅人乐事 Sep 5

QHE wrote:
请 Steve, 江南 David, 论坛 “版竹” 和朋友们劳工节品茗賞華.
品茗賞華
《品茗賞華──七碗茶》- 鄭善禧
...
一碗喉吻潤, 兩碗破孤悶。
三碗搜枯腸, 唯有文字五千卷。
四碗發輕汗, 平生不平事, 盡向毛孔散。
五碗肌骨清, 六碗通仙靈。
七碗吃不得也, 唯覺兩腋習習清風生。
蓬萊山,在何處? 玉川子,乘此清風欲歸去。
-盧仝七碗茶歌

QHE,

你的译文更接近原文,很好。

谢谢图文!这位老先生字比画老。
他在款识中还说:
品茗赏花,雅人乐事,图成又题而宝之。
想前人品茶皆用碗,观今日本茶道亦泛用碗。古名窑有珍贵之天目碗可证也。

注:
1)篆书中的“花”字跟“华”写法一样。
2)宝之:是说他自己画完了,过了些时候觉得这张画得还很满意,要像宝贝一样保存好。
3)天目碗:是日本人的叫法。喜欢收藏瓷器的中国人把它叫作“兔毫盏”。原出福建武夷山区的“建窑”。建窑在宋代以后就慢慢衰落了,而日本人却一直很崇拜这种茶碗,尤其用于"茶道"。我十多年前在 Boston Museum of Fine Art 看到过真正的北宋兔毫盏:
http://www.mfa.org/collections/object/tea-bowl-21292

下面一只是日本人仿制的:
http://www.mfa.org/collections/object/tea-bowl-of-tenmoku-type-made-in-imitation-of-chinese-jian-ware-195798

波士顿博物馆虽说不上大,但其馆藏亚洲艺术几乎样样是精品。


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David Shen  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:02
English to Chinese
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及格啦? Sep 5

pkchan wrote:
A++

PK 我兄,

能得你三个A, 说明我及格啦!


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pkchan  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:02
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
+ ...
獨唱不如合唱 Sep 5

QHE wrote:

wherestip wrote: Happy Labor Day Weekend

David Shen wrote: 各位翻译劳工节快乐!



      请 Steve, 江南 David, 论坛 “版竹” 和朋友们劳工节品茗賞華.

      品茗賞華
      《品茗賞華──七碗茶》- 鄭善禧

      ...
      一碗喉吻潤, 兩碗破孤悶。
      三碗搜枯腸, 唯有文字五千卷。
      四碗發輕汗, 平生不平事, 盡向毛孔散。
      五碗肌骨清, 六碗通仙靈。
      七碗吃不得也, 唯覺兩腋習習清風生。
      蓬萊山,在何處? 玉川子,乘此清風欲歸去。
      -盧仝七碗茶歌






    David Shen wrote:
    挂了一天,没人接应?论坛成独唱,处境实可怜。


    David,
    没人接应,可不等于没有反响。 我认为你译得挺精彩(虽说有些小地方还要斟酌);主要不是用词,是翻译的境界与众不同。文学上我的功底可不怎么样,三天都不一定译出你初稿的水平。



    David Shen wrote:

    Some people say a man is made outta mud
    A poor man's made outta muscle and blood
    Muscle and blood and skin and bones
    A mind that's weak and a back that's strong
    |
    有道是人出尘土。
    一身骨骼加肌肤,
    贫者除此全无,
    心软背硬把日子过。
    Revised in bold, original in italics.

    有人说人原本是尘土。
    世上千般穷人全无,
    那一身筋骨和肌肤,
    心软腰硬就凭血肉。



    虽然宗教上有说人出自尘土(dust)归于尘土,但我觉得 mud 也可以译为 “泥土”(土 + 水)。下面括号里是我在你译文基础上想到的几句拙译:

    有道是人出尘土。(有道是人出泥土)
    一身骨骼加肌肤,(穷汉子血肉铸就)
    贫者除此全无, (一身血肉加筋骨)
    心软背硬把日子过。(我心虽软腰板硬)



    [Edited at 2017-09-04 19:30 GMT]


人為泥塑,
血肉成軀,
窮人一身硬骨頭,
心軟腰直是男兒。(心直腰挺是男兒)



[Edited at 2017-09-05 18:18 GMT]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Local time: 16:02
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傻,缺心眼 Sep 5

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/weak-minded

weak–minded
:  having or indicating a weak mind:

a :  lacking in judgment or good sense :  foolish

b :  feebleminded

好听点儿: 心眼少、单纯、为人耿直


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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脑力不足、迟钝 or Sep 5

头脑简单?

俗话: 老粗儿

Anyway, the person describes himself as not being bright; it's different than being soft-hearted.  


[Edited at 2017-09-05 19:06 GMT]


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Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 15:02
English to Chinese
主人公不是在夸自己 Sep 6

wherestip wrote:

头脑简单?

俗话: 老粗儿

Anyway, the person describes himself as not being bright; it's different than being soft-hearted.  


[Edited at 2017-09-05 19:06 GMT]


完全赞同您的见解。棚屋里住,矿井下钻、话不投机挥铁拳,心软怎能生存?



人说男人是泥土,
穷人一身血与肉。
血与肉加皮与骨,
头脑不灵腰杆硬。





[修改时间: 2017-09-06 00:30 GMT]


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David Shen  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:02
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好! Sep 6

pkchan wrote:
獨唱不如合唱
...
人為泥塑,
血肉成軀,
窮人一身硬骨頭,
心軟腰直是男兒。(心直腰挺是男兒)


“泥塑” 这两字简洁、传神。我怎么没想到这个“塑”字,造物主捏出一个泥人不就是“塑”吗。然后他给人吹一口气,那泥人就活了。(也就是说,人要是咽不下这口气的话,就活不了了。)

还有:“直”和“挺”多比“硬”好。


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David Shen  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:02
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I got something from here! Sep 6

wherestip wrote:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/weak-minded

weak–minded
:  having or indicating a weak mind:

a :  lacking in judgment or good sense :  foolish

b :  feebleminded

好听点儿: 心眼少、单纯、为人耿直

Steve,

I could use at least one of them. Thanks for the choices!
And here is what I come up with.

看到回帖,PK 用词的简洁,Steve 对词义的精准,QHE对原文的执着,很受启发。
如果这首原本是“下里巴人”的曲子,编辑要求你一定要把它弄成“高山流水”的琴韵的话,我只好这样子译了:

Some people say a man is made outta mud
A poor man's made outta muscle and blood
Muscle and blood and skin and bones
A mind that's weak and a back that's strong
人泥塑,血和肉,虽穷一身铮铮骨。
心眼少,铁板腰,全凭筋骨做到老。
熬,熬,熬。

You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter, don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store
十六吨,挣几分?背债愈重误光阴。
圣彼得,别来撵,此命尚欠债未免。
怜,怜,怜。

I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine
I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine
I loaded sixteen tons of number nine coal
And the straw boss said "well, bless my soul"
生之初,无日出,拎起煤铲矿上做。
九号煤,装到颠,工头乐得把头点。
Yep, yep, yep.

I was born one mornin', it was drizzlin' rain
Fightin' and trouble are my middle name
I was raised in the canebrake by an ol' mama lion
Can't no high-toned woman make me walk the line
生之晨,雨朦朦,打架淘气从未宁。
草窝长,虎妈养,受不了小姐和娇娘。
犟,犟,犟。

If you see me comin', better step aside
A lotta men didn't, a lotta men died
One fist of iron, the other of steel
If the right one don't get you then the left one will
见我来,你让开,不让开的全玩完。
一手铁,一手钢,左拳没中右拳尝。
噹,噹,噹。

填是勉强填完了,可问题是没法唱了。看样子那乐曲也得用古琴来重新谱过了。
硬叫美国牛仔穿苏东坡的古装,我看他那牛还怎么骑!😁


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David Shen  Identity Verified
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棒! Sep 6

Fargoer wrote:

wherestip wrote:
头脑简单?
俗话: 老粗儿
Anyway, the person describes himself as not being bright; it's different than being soft-hearted.  


[Edited at 2017-09-05 19:06 GMT]

完全赞同您的见解。棚屋里住,矿井下钻、话不投机挥铁拳,心软怎能生存?

人说男人是泥土,
穷人一身血与肉。
血与肉加皮与骨,
头脑不灵腰杆硬。


[修改时间: 2017-09-06 00:30 GMT]

老F 出声,此题有色。不同声音,求之不得。

我如果在发上面这帖之前先看到了你的这一帖,那我上面这个戏译会有所不同,至少是某些部分会不同。可我发上一帖的时候,您的这帖怎么还没有出现,今上午一看反倒跑我那上面去了?从各位的回应中,我已看到有很多地方自己没处理好,尤其是这一句:

A mind that's weak and a back that's strong.

现在看来,将 a weak mind 译成“心软”显然是理解有误,然后要妥当地表达就难了。我初译时还曾经想用:“心肠软,后背硬”,自己想:这一软对一硬,不是很相称吗?后来觉得“后背硬”不对劲,那是说有后台老板。就把“后肠”给割了,剩下“心软背硬”。还是不对劲,发现这问题出在“腰”上。(也就是说,难翻的地方往往就是文化习俗不同之处。而不是某个高深的单词)。

你的译本紧贴原文,而且简约,可为定译。
如果要考虑到歌曲吟唱求押韵的话,我只有一字建议:就是用 Steve 那句俗话中的“粗”字来取代最后这个“硬”字。他那两帖原是歌曲,一出来我正好没事就拿来听,一听还很喜欢。就有了翻译的冲动。可是我栽就栽在那“硬”字上!

还有一处请教:你是从何处看出“棚屋”来的? 我可以跟你讲我为什么觉得他的 canebrake 是在讲草窝。

有幸一同论文,还望笑纳。


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Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 15:02
English to Chinese
我的译文很粗略,您谬赞了! Sep 7

David Shen wrote:


如果要考虑到歌曲吟唱求押韵的话,我只有一字建议:就是用 Steve 那句俗话中的“粗”字来取代最后这个“硬”字。 


“粗”字改得好,终于押上韵了。不过,我的译文很粗略,只能大致表达出原文的思想。要唱得上口,差得远着呢。歌词这种东西,在我看来有点像我们的格律诗词,基本上是不可翻译的。不仅每行音节数(不仅是字数)要大致相当,还要考虑到气息的连贯和停顿。在很多情况下,能唱得好听的歌词译文,其实都是按大意重写的。

还有一处请教:你是从何处看出“棚屋”来的? 我可以跟你讲我为什么觉得他的 canebrake 是在讲草窝。

您这一“请教”,把我吓一跳。:) 我用“棚屋”其实没有什么有力的根据,只是我对原文的理解,不是对“canebrake”的翻译。怎样翻译好,有待商榷。 


 

[修改时间: 2017-09-07 05:01 GMT]


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Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 15:02
English to Chinese
来点快板节奏的 Sep 7

I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine
I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine
I loaded sixteen tons of number nine coal
And the straw boss said "well, bless my soul"

我出生的早上就没有阳光,
我拎铁锹,我下煤矿。
九号煤炭我抡了十六吨,
工头傻眼说“你真棒”!

You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
Another day older and deeper in debt
Saint Peter, don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

你抡了十六吨,那又怎麽样?
你青春一日老,你债务又见长。
圣彼得捉魂他奈何不了我,
我的灵魂在老板手上。

共大家一笑。 


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Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 15:02
English to Chinese
试试直接用“草窝”的比喻 Sep 7

假定读者能领悟这里隐含的“美女与野兽”故事的叙事背景

I was born one mornin', it was drizzlin' rain
Fightin' and trouble are my middle name
I was raised in the canebrake by an ol' mama lion
Can't no high-toned woman make me walk the line

我出生的早上老天在哭泣,
打架惹祸就是我脾气。
我长在草窝里,母狮是我妈咪。
纵有美女赛天仙,休想给我立规矩。


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wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 16:02
Chinese to English
+ ...
"high-toned woman" Sep 7

Fargoer wrote:

纵有美女赛天仙,休想给我立规矩。



振振有辞的女人, 呵叱说教的女人 (woman who thinks she's better than others)

泼辣凶悍的女人, 昂脸老婆 (a shrew)

That's the way I feel what a high-toned woman would be like in this context.  


[Edited at 2017-09-07 17:12 GMT]


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