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Translation is approximation by guesstimation
Thread poster: Alan Wang

Alan Wang  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 13:43
English to Chinese
+ ...
May 16, 2014

谈谈翻译。
我最近在审校一个译稿时,发现reasonable这个单词好像有英汉词典上所没有的意义(没在网络词典上找到)。因此能把翻译弄糊涂:
We will immediately suspend or discontinue engagement with upstream suppliers where we identify a reasonable risk that they are sourcing from, or linked to, any party committing serious abuses as defined in paragraph 1.
我们发现在一定程度上存在上游供应商从第一段中定义的犯有严重侵权行为的任何一方进行采购或与之有关联的风险的情况下,我们将立即中止或中断与其的合作。

比如以上这句,翻译就把它译为“在一定程度上存在(×××的风险)”,根据存在即合理这个著名论断,所以是“合理的”,可见翻译是动了不少心思。:-D

而在同文另外一句中,合理两字直接译了出来。
Any reasonable inconsistency between a factual circumstance and a standard should be considered a risk with potential adverse impacts.
现实情况与标准之间存在的任何合理范围内的不一致的地方都应视为具有潜在负面影响的风险。

查reasonable 在Word同义词库中的同义词,在此最可用的意义是moderate。这与“一定程度上存在的”和“合理范围内的”比较相合,印证了翻译的译法有根有据。

但据我浅见,reasonable 在此最接近believable。但在Word的同义词库中并没有believable。

但Proz高人很多,I will wait for someone to trump my opinion.


 

Cheng Peng  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 13:43
Member (2010)
English to Chinese
+ ...
... May 16, 2014

Translation is approximation by guesstimation.....-_-!!!

 

wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 00:43
Chinese to English
+ ...
是的 May 16, 2014

Alan,

你的理解是对的。


 

Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 13:43
Chinese to English
有的吧 May 16, 2014

英英字典:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/reasonable?s=t
3. having modest or moderate expectations; not making unfair demands

汉英字典:
http://www.nciku.com/search/all/reasonable
3. 合情理的,有道理的


We will immediately suspend or discontinue engagement with upstream suppliers where we identify a reasonable risk that they are sourcing from, or linked to, any party committing serious abuses as defined in paragraph 1.
这句好难!怎么组织起来都不通顺。
“存在上述第一段规定的严重违规行为的,上游供应商不得与之保持工作关系,若有合理理由相信上游供应商与上述违规方有采购或其他关系,本公司将立即冻结或终结与该上游供应商的合作。”?

Any reasonable inconsistency between a factual circumstance and a standard should be considered a risk with potential adverse impacts.
“凡是实际情况和标准之间有可观偏差,都应视为可产生负面影响的风险”?


 

wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 00:43
Chinese to English
+ ...
IMHO May 16, 2014

》》》 合理理由相信

同意 Phil 说的。 不是瞎猜、瞎怀疑,而是有一定根据的。 Alan 说的 可以让人置信 的意思也是包含在其中。


 

Alan Wang  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 13:43
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
here is the dilemma May 16, 2014

reasonable risk
Phi says reasonable means '合理的', but if you translate it as 合理的风险, it does not sound right, since the sentence as a whole is talking about the risk is unacceptable which should mean unreasonable.

可信的,并不意味合理的,后者是肯定的意义,而前者比较中性的。
在你的翻译中,你是把可信的(reasonable)转成动词‘相信’


 

Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 13:43
Chinese to English
同意 May 16, 2014

Alan Wang wrote:

reasonable risk
Phi says reasonable means '合理的', but if you translate it as 合理的风险, it does not sound right, since the sentence as a whole is talking about the risk is unacceptable which should mean unreasonable.

可信的,并不意味合理的,后者是肯定的意义,而前者比较中性的。
在你的翻译中,你是把可信的(reasonable)转成动词‘相信’

确实是这样。可以考虑“实质性的风险”,但意思又略不同。大概没有办法用中文的“形容词+名词”来对应英文中的“reasonable risk"两个词,因此要选择变相译法。合理理由、可信、有理由相信等等。难关就是发挥的机会!


 

QHE
United States
Local time: 01:43
English to Chinese
+ ...
题外话 May 16, 2014

Alan Wang wrote:
但Proz高人很多,I will wait for someone to trump my opinion.



这里岂止是高人很多,最新报道指出这里每一个人都是语言专家!

但据观察所见, 对以往 众多的 Reasonable questions (异常,过于复杂的症结问题就别提了),相助的鲁班好象屈指可数。不过,门外专家载道之声却不绝于耳; 或许语言专家认为问题大都是 Unreasonable questions。



[Edited at 2014-05-16 16:30 GMT]


 

Yan Yuliang  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 13:43
Member (2008)
English to Chinese
+ ...
The Chinese sould sound more natural May 16, 2014

We will immediately suspend or discontinue engagement with upstream suppliers where we identify a reasonable risk that they are sourcing from, or linked to, any party committing serious abuses as defined in paragraph 1.
我们发现在一定程度上存在上游供应商从第一段中定义的犯有严重侵权行为的任何一方进行采购或与之有关联的风险的情况下,我们将立即中止或中断与其的合作。


How about this:
若我们有合理证据怀疑上游供应商....,我们将立即.....
这样感觉更像中文的习惯表达。


把reasonable risk翻译成了“有合理证据怀疑”,不知可否?请指正。


 

jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:43
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
REASONABLE = 靠譜 May 16, 2014

REASONABLE = 靠譜

 

wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 00:43
Chinese to English
+ ...
我觉得 May 16, 2014

翻成 "基本上成立的风险"、"以常理衡量可构成的风险" 之类的说法 比较好。

Although it is used in a legal context, I think the definition of "reasonable" is quite nebulous.


[Edited at 2014-05-17 12:46 GMT]


 

wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 00:43
Chinese to English
+ ...
A reference May 16, 2014

http://books.google.com/books?id=aahu4OAab8wC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq="reasonable%20risk"%20legal%20definition&source=bl&ots=KPNjx37ZrJ&sig=u5h4KttIbcuPloGKOc7DsMkmkfo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G2B2U4rUF86Rqgb9wYLQCA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q="reasonable%20risk"%20legal%20definition&f=false



§ 3.2.2. Reasonableness

The notion of reasonableness plays a critical role in defining the contemporary Anglo-American legal mind. English-speaking lawyers refer routinely to reasonable time, reasonable care, reasonable mistake, reasonable risk, and reasonable force. Every time the term is used, the implicit reference is to the behavior of a “reasonable person under the circumstances”. This hypothetical character invites us to recognize and apply a community standard for judging individual behavior. Those who fail to meet the standard of the reasonable person are at fault and deserve to be blamed for their “unreasonableness” of belief or behavior. There is no technical problem translating “reasonableness” into Western languages that draw on the Hellenistic understanding of reason as a source of truth. French vocabulary includes raisonnable; Germans understand what it means to be vernünftig, and Russians have no trouble with razumnyj. The problem is that although lawyers are able to use this term in legal argument and in drafting statutory provisions, they traditionally have not done so. The French Civil Code uses raisonnable just once, and the German Civil Code never couches a rule in the analogous demands of Vernunft, or reason. This pattern differs from the efforts to translate “fairness” in words that do not quite fit. Western lawyers in the civil law tradition have a proper translation for “reasonable” at their disposal, but until recently they have chosen not to use it.

For languages outside the influence of Latin, however, the problem comes close to the difficulty of adopting the term “fairness”. When the concept of “reason” is not in common usage, it is difficult to find a cognate for “reasonable”. In modern Hebrew, for example, lawyers had considerable difficulty translating the phrases employing reasonableness that appeared in the English statutes that they adopted as their own, in particular, from Fitzjames Stephens’ draft criminal code, the standard for many of the former English colonies. Finally, sometime after the founding of the state of Israel, a group of experts convened at the Department of Justice in Jerusalem and decided to introduce the word savir as the designated equivalent of “reasonableness”. Consequently, the term not only became common in legal usage but soon spread to the language as a whole, to the point that native speakers today are unaware of the calculated way the word was coined. We can expect a similar development to occur eventually in Arabic, Chinese, and other languages where the concept of reason has weaker cultural roots than in (sic) it does in the European languages.



 

wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 00:43
Chinese to English
+ ...
Or May 16, 2014

合乎常理的? 合乎逻辑的? ...

 

jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:43
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Reason mean common sense in a lot of occasions. May 16, 2014

"Reasonable" can be used to describe anything, meaning anything you want it to mean, so sometimes it is a meaningless word. for example:

A translation agency could write to a client this way: Our price is 20 cents/word and our price is reasonable.

The translation agency could also write to a translator this way: Our offered rate is 2 cents/word and this rate is reasonable.

[Edited at 2014-05-16 22:04 GMT]


 

jinachen
Canada
Local time: 01:43
Chinese to English
+ ...
Guesstimation May 16, 2014

wherestip wrote:
Although it is used in a legal context, I think the definition of "reasonable" is quite nebulous.


When I was with a law office, “reasonable" quickly became the favorite vocabulary of every new analyst who worked there. At the time it drove me crazy, as I thought "reasonable" = "within reason" = having acceptable reasons = argument is logical etc., yet at the same time it was a shifting and fuzzy standard that I could not pin down.

After learning about law, I realize "reasonable doubt" in criminal law context and the "reasonable person" in civil law context are so important in law that these concepts are pounded into law students. In fact, "reasonable doubt" was supposed to be "reasonable doubt" of a "reasonable person". Considering this, no wonder "reasonable" holds a special place. When it comes to standards of proof, at least in Canada it is often explained quickly as "reasonable doubt" being lower than "on a balance of probabilities", which is 51% technically, but higher than an "air of reality", and that "beyond a reasonable doubt" being much higher than "on a balance". This explanation is not rigorous and leaves quite a range if we are thinking along the ruler of percentages, but is useful enough.

Inheriting this train of thought, I could think what is expressed in the original sentences is:
1. where "reasonable" doubt can get you aquitted in a criminal trial, "reasonable" risk (identified by a "reasonable person") is enough to suspend business, like "reasonable" grounds is enough for a warrant
2. where you find deviation from standard to be "reasonable" (based on what a "reasonable person" would agree with), you have to consider it a potential risk

This is a very interesting discussion, I learned a lot about the translation of this sensitive word. Thanks for sharing, Alan, Phil, wherestip and others.


 
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Translation is approximation by guesstimation

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