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向高手请教两个词:
Thread poster: Seaguest
Seaguest  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 14:13
English to Chinese
Aug 27, 2005

1:原文是一篇批判智商设计论的文章。在翻译到这一段时,因为对美国的教育体制不熟悉,被“curricular inclusiveness”这个短语卡住了。请哪位高手指点一下。谢谢!原文是:
These are the same modest gents who decry relativism and curricular inclusiveness in the humanities, where it is far more justifiable than in the sciences.

2. 前面是“对个体人权的假定是英国法律的一个非常古老的特点。” It has now spread over the world and become a central doctrine of a new form of mission activity.
最后的短语 mission activity搞不懂什么意思。

求助一下大家。


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wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:13
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高手不敢, 仅作参考 Aug 27, 2005

Seaguest wrote:

1:原文是一篇批判智商设计论的文章。在翻译到这一段时,因为对美国的教育体制不熟悉,被“curricular inclusiveness”这个短语卡住了。请哪位高手指点一下。谢谢!原文是:
These are the same modest gents who decry relativism and curricular inclusiveness in the humanities, where it is far more justifiable than in the sciences.

2. 前面是“对个体人权的假定是英国法律的一个非常古老的特点。” It has now spread over the world and become a central doctrine of a new form of mission activity.
最后的短语 mission activity搞不懂什么意思。

求助一下大家。


The 1st sentence comes from a recent Newsweek article by Jonathan Alter. He's a liberal, and is being sarcastic when referring to these 2 guys as modest gents of course.

"Last week Fox News lent a hand. Bill O'Reilly says that the National Academy of Science is guilty of "fascism" for arguing that ID should not take up valuable class time in high-school biology. (Not to be outdone, Dr. James Dobson compared embryonic-stem-cell research to "Nazi experiments.") These are the same modest gents who decry relativism and curricular inclusiveness in the humanities, where it is far more justifiable than in the sciences."

"curricular inclusiveness" refers to the practice of including multi-cultural curriculum in school educational systems. Here are two links that might give you some idea of what this is all about:

****************************************************************
http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/PHRC/education/education_guidlines.html

Responsible officials, including appropriate state agency officials, therefore, should strive in every way possible to strengthen programs designed to produce mutual respect and trust between groups. This would include a multi-cultural curriculum to ensure the contributions of all groups are included and that the treatment of all minority groups in our common history is re-examined. This type of curricular inclusiveness and programmatic equity should exist in all schools, not just those, which have minority children, enrolled. These proposals are designed to achieve good education for all children, not just special education for minority children. Additionally, those responsible should cooperate in the development of stronger programs of in-service training in human relations and multi-cultural education, both for administrative staff and teachers.

****************************************************************
http://homepages.ius.edu/groups/ced/handouts/proposal_draft_se.stm

Curricular Inclusiveness: Document analysis of multicultural course content present in syllabi

****************************************************************

About your 2nd question, I would say "mission activity" here basically means 实现某一宗旨的主要活动,particularly when it is used in the context of a religion, doctrine, or ideological belief. Here are some links that show the usage of this term in this sense:

****************************************************************
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/vat/mission.html

DECREE ON THE MISSION ACTIVITY OF THE CHURCH
...

The mission of the Church, therefore, is fulfilled by that activity which makes her, obeying the command of Christ and influenced by the grace and love of the Holy Spirit, fully present to all men or nations, in order that, by the example of her life and by her preaching, by the sacraments and other means of grace, she may lead them to the faith, the freedom and the peace of Christ, that thus there may lie open before them a firm and free road to full participation in the mystery of Christ.

****************************************************************
http://www.pignon.org/NewFiles/WCRF.html

In 1996 while trying to solve severe communication problems between the USA and Pignon, Haiti, WCRF introduced the satellite telephone service to the Central Plateau. This system has been since been established in the Zanmi Lasante mission hospital in Cange, Haiti. WCRF recognizes that medical work is a mission activity, that education is a mission activity, that well drilling is a mission activity and that communication is a mission activity that makes all other mission activities to be more effective.

****************************************************************
This one is less of a 宗旨 per se, more like a 任务:

http://stb.lanl.gov:8080/webdata/stb/education/k-12/lasso/docs/6Space_Missions.pdf

****************************************************************



[Edited at 2005-08-28 12:54]


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chica nueva
Local time: 19:13
Chinese to English
How about posting as Kudoz questions? Aug 28, 2005

1 'inclusive' has been asked already on Kudoz I think. Try Kudoz search function, on the Kudoz page.
2 'mission activity'-> 'missionary activity'-> 'evangelism' -> '传教'活动?


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Seaguest  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 14:13
English to Chinese
TOPIC STARTER
感谢两位先生的热情指教 Aug 28, 2005

非常感谢楼上两位先生的热忱指点。经过考虑,我打算将这两句话分别译成:

1, 这些人同样是一些道貌岸然的伪君子,他们谴责人文学科里的相对主义和学科兼容,而这在人文学科里要比在自然科学里正当得多。

2,对个体人权的假定是英国法律的一个非常古老的特点,现在它已扩散至全世界,并已成为一种新型的布道活动的核心教条。

请诸位高手指正!谢谢!


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wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:13
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Debate on Intelligent Design Aug 28, 2005

Seaguest wrote:

1, 这些人同样是一些道貌岸然的伪君子,他们谴责人文学科里的相对主义和学科兼容,而这在人文学科里要比在自然科学里正当得多。

2,对个体人权的假定是英国法律的一个非常古老的特点,现在它已扩散至全世界,并已成为一种新型的布道活动的核心教条。



I think your translation is very good. But for the first sentence, you might want to preserve some of the sarcasm by wording it a little differently, such as:


"These are the same modest gents who decry relativism and curricular inclusiveness in the humanities, where it is far more justifiable than in the sciences."

恰是这(同)几位谦谦君子, 坚决反对人文科学里的相对主义和学科兼容, 而将这类课程列入人文科学比起自然科学要正当合理得多.

FWIW. And good luck with the translation of this article.


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Xiaoping Fu  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 23:13
Chinese to English
+ ...
仅供参考 Aug 28, 2005

Seaguest wrote:

非常感谢楼上两位先生的热忱指点。经过考虑,我打算将这两句话分别译成:

1, 这些人同样是一些道貌岸然的伪君子,他们谴责人文学科里的相对主义和学科兼容,而这在人文学科里要比在自然科学里正当得多。

2,对个体人权的假定是英国法律的一个非常古老的特点,现在它已扩散至全世界,并已成为一种新型的布道活动的核心教条。

请诸位高手指正!谢谢!


1、Intelligent Design 译为智商设计论不妥。智商(Intelligence Quotient ) 是测定智能的量化指标。而这里的intelligent 指的是生命进化自然过程背后起支配作用的超自然智能,像预先就有的设计图一样。

2、“这些人同样是一些道貌岸然的伪君子”的处理,与原文的意思有较大的差别。原文的意思是,上面提到的那两个人,把反对智能设计论收入中学教材的人说成法西斯。也正是这两个人对人文科学的相对主义进行了攻击。这里的内在的思路是以子之矛攻子之盾。那两个人的观点是要求把智能设计论包括在中学教材中与生物进化论并列。这实际上可以说是科学领域的相对主义,即否定某种理论学说(这里指进化论)的唯我独尊的地位。但他们又批评人文科学领域的相对主义,而人文科学的相对主义要比科学中的相对主义有更正当的理由。就是说,他们为了自己的需要,一会儿主张相对主义,一会儿批评相对主义。而且批评的是比较有道理的相对主义,主张的是不太有道理的相对主义。

3、我理解, curricular inclusiveness 在这里是指教学内容上的包容性,即对各种不同甚至相互矛盾的理论学说兼收并蓄。例如马克思的理论和韦伯的理论都讲。

4、mission activity 还是按 上面那位同仁建议的译为“传教活动”或“传道活动”较好。“布道”通常是指在教堂向教徒讲解《圣经》。

第一句的参考译文:

“正是这两个貌似温文的绅士,曾经谴责人文学科中的相对主义及其课程设置的兼收并蓄。其实,相对主义在人文学科里要比在自然科学里正当得多。


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Bill Lao
Local time: 14:13
English to Chinese
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我的理解有所不同 Aug 29, 2005

Xiaoping Fu wrote:

第一句的参考译文:

“正是这两个貌似温文的绅士,曾经谴责人文学科中的相对主义及其课程设置的兼收并蓄。其实,相对主义在人文学科里要比在自然科学里正当得多。


我对第一句的理解与楼上诸位先生有所不同,我的理解和翻译是:

These are the same modest gents who decry relativism and curricular inclusiveness in the humanities, where it is far more justifiable than in the sciences.

他们就是那些公开谴责相对主义和人文学科课程包容性(或包罗万象)的谦谦君子,而课程的包容性在人文学科要比在自然学科更加不可非议和正当得多。


[Edited at 2005-08-29 01:44]


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Last Hermit
Local time: 14:13
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+ ...
窃以为,您的理解是对的。 Aug 29, 2005

  这里的“it”指代“relativism and curricular inclusiveness in the humanities”,就是说把这两个玩意儿收录在人文学科里比收录在自然科学里要合理得多。

Bill Lao wrote:

Xiaoping Fu wrote:

第一句的参考译文:

“正是这两个貌似温文的绅士,曾经谴责人文学科中的相对主义及其课程设置的兼收并蓄。其实,相对主义在人文学科里要比在自然科学里正当得多。


我对第一句的理解与楼上诸位先生有所区别,我的理解和翻译是:

These are the same modest gents who decry relativism and curricular inclusiveness in the humanities, where it is far more justifiable than in the sciences.

他们就是那些公开谴责相对主义和人文学科课程包容性(或包罗万象)的谦谦君子,而课程的包容性在人文学科要比在自然学科更加不可非议和正当得多。


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Xiaoping Fu  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 23:13
Chinese to English
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多谢指教! Aug 29, 2005

Bill Lao wrote:

Xiaoping Fu wrote:

第一句的参考译文:

“正是这两个貌似温文的绅士,曾经谴责人文学科中的相对主义及其课程设置的兼收并蓄。其实,相对主义在人文学科里要比在自然科学里正当得多。


我对第一句的理解与楼上诸位先生有所不同,我的理解和翻译是:

These are the same modest gents who decry relativism and curricular inclusiveness in the humanities, where it is far more justifiable than in the sciences.

他们就是那些公开谴责相对主义和人文学科课程包容性(或包罗万象)的谦谦君子,而课程的包容性在人文学科要比在自然学科更加不可非议和正当得多。


[Edited at 2005-08-29 01:44]


认真考虑一下,觉得 Bill 的意见有道理。虽然相对主义和课程兼容性在这里讲得基本上是同一件事,但从语句本身来看,Bill 的处理方式更忠实于原文。


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Seaguest  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 14:13
English to Chinese
TOPIC STARTER
My translation and consideration Aug 29, 2005


These are the same modest gents who decry relativism and curricular inclusiveness in the humanities, where it is far more justifiable than in the sciences.



Thanks very much for all friend's kindness and instructions. Now I think it proper to translate the quoted sentences into:

同样是这几位谦谦君子,他们反对人文学科中的相对主义以及在教学内容上的兼收并蓄,其实这种做法要比在自然科学里正当合理多了。

I treat the sentences like that becase I think the author wanted to point out some people's double standard: they advocate the relativism in natural science, but they decry that in social science and humanities.

In addition, I have wondered the exact meaning of the phrase "not to be outdone". I with you may continue to instruct me. Thanks!


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chica nueva
Local time: 19:13
Chinese to English
由于不想让他人占上风 Aug 29, 2005

not to be outdone = not wanting someone else to do better than you eg Pat was wearing an outrageous purple dress, so, not to be outdone, I put on my new gold and black trouser suit. (Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

-> something like 由于不想让他人占上风 (?)


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Wenjer Leuschel  Identity Verified
Taiwan
Local time: 14:13
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Great explanation, Lesley! Aug 29, 2005

Lesley McLachlan wrote:

not to be outdone = not wanting someone else to do better than you eg Pat was wearing an outrageous purple dress, so, not to be outdone, I put on my new gold and black trouser suit. (Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

-> something like 由于不想让他人占上风 (?)


Great explanation, Lesley! I like the example you took, very enlightening.


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Seaguest  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 14:13
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TOPIC STARTER
稳操胜券? Aug 29, 2005

Lesley McLachlan wrote:

not to be outdone = not wanting someone else to do better than you eg Pat was wearing an outrageous purple dress, so, not to be outdone, I put on my new gold and black trouser suit. (Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

-> something like 由于不想让他人占上风 (?)


Thank you, Mr. Mclachlan. I understand the meaning now.


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wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:13
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Relativism Aug 29, 2005

Bill Lao wrote:

Xiaoping Fu wrote:

第一句的参考译文:

“正是这两个貌似温文的绅士,曾经谴责人文学科中的相对主义及其课程设置的兼收并蓄。其实,相对主义在人文学科里要比在自然科学里正当得多。


我对第一句的理解与楼上诸位先生有所不同,我的理解和翻译是:

These are the same modest gents who decry relativism and curricular inclusiveness in the humanities, where it is far more justifiable than in the sciences.

他们就是那些公开谴责相对主义和人文学科课程包容性(或包罗万象)的谦谦君子,而课程的包容性在人文学科要比在自然学科更加不可非议和正当得多。


Bill,

I'm not sure if one needs to separate the word "relativism" from "humanities" in such an absolute manner when translating this sentence. IMHO, relativism itself is not what these conservatives are objecting to. It is the practice of instituting relativism in school curricula(humanities in particular) that they are dead set against.

For example, most conservatives well acknowledge that Spanish is one of the major languages in the world. They defintiely don't deny its existence, nor its "legitimacy". Yet they are not for teaching classes in Spanish, even in those public schools predominantly attended by Mexican immigrant kids in the United States.

Here's an article by Bill O'Reilly himself...

**************************************************************

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27475

This is a bad time to be a kid in America. We've got war, terrorism, priests who prey on young people, and powerful cardinals who cover up sexual assaults against children. We've got moral relativism in the public schools, hooligan entertainers as role models, and parents trying to be friends with their kids. As Alice Cooper might say: "Welcome to the Nightmare."

**************************************************************

Of course, by reading Jonathan Alter's sentence and analyzing it solely based on its grammatical structure, you could say that moral relativism as a whole is decried by these two conservatives, not only the relativism in school curricula. However, if you read the whole article, or do some research on what the whole Intelligent Design debate is all about(presuming that you haven't done so already), you might think a little differently.

Here's an interesting link, provided you are interested in the topic of course. You can see how relativism is a mere fact of life. There's no denying its existence, even for someone with conservative ideals and beliefs.

http://www.scu.edu/ethics/practicing/decision/ethicalrelativism.html

On the other hand, you could be right. Perhaps the right wing conservatives are really against relativism as a theory or philosophy itself. But based on what little understanding I have of American politics, it doesn't seem to be the case. FWIW.

[Edited at 2005-08-30 10:18]


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Last Hermit
Local time: 14:13
Chinese to English
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其实只须四个字:不甘示弱 Aug 29, 2005

  或者说“不遑/惶多让”。但我一直弄不明白为什么要说“不遑”或“不惶”,前者表示没有时间,后者表示不怕,但似乎都不是很通。还有一个词“遑论”或“惶论”也经常用,但好像也不通。

Lesley McLachlan wrote:

not to be outdone = not wanting someone else to do better than you eg Pat was wearing an outrageous purple dress, so, not to be outdone, I put on my new gold and black trouser suit. (Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

-> something like 由于不想让他人占上风 (?)


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