| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | Off topic: 神六上天，国外尤其是海外华人反应如何？ Thread poster: Mark Xiang
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[Edited at 2005-10-24 00:52]
| | | | Mark Xiang
Local time: 18:48
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER | That is interesting | Oct 22, 2005 |
Kevin Yang wrote: Mark, There are some new words have been or just about to be introduced into English: Chinanaut, Taikonaut, Yuhangyuan and Hangtianyuan... For more, please read: http://news.wenxuecity.com/BBSView.php?SubID=news&MsgID=93824 "美国《新科学家》杂志也在自己网站上的宇航频道针对神六进行了一次民意调查，题目很有意思，主题是"你认为中国太空人应该如何称呼?"，其中12% 的人赞同应该称为汉语的Yuhangyuan(宇航员，有31%的人则赞同用汉语的太空加上希腊语的水手组合为Taikonaut(太空人，还有一个选择则叫幸运，选择这一项的人竟高达58%。" Kevin [Edited at 2005-10-21 21:29]
And the fact tells something.
^_^
Mark
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X) 
Taiwan
Local time: 18:48
English to Chinese
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| All mentors give lectures to safeguard their own interest. | Oct 22, 2005 |
Angus WU wrote:
The mentors are lecturing the Chinese to safeguard their "own" interest which of course is understandable.
Believe me, dear friends, all mentors give lectures to safeguard their own interest. But we take lessons only when they suit our own interest.
The best lecture is to safeguard the balance of "theirs" and "ours" as well as "yours" and "mine" which is sometimes not so much understandable to those people who become peacefully aggressive when their interest doesn't fit into that of others.
| | | | Angus Woo
Local time: 18:48
Chinese to English
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| The question is "who" has the final say? | Oct 22, 2005 |
Wenjer Leuschel wrote: Angus WU wrote:
The mentors are lecturing the Chinese to safeguard their "own" interest which of course is understandable.
Believe me, dear friends, all mentors give lectures to safeguard their own interest. But we take lessons only when they suit our own interest. The best lecture is to safeguard the balance of "theirs" and "ours" as well as "yours" and "mine" which is sometimes not so much understandable to those people who become peacefully aggressive when their interest doesn't fit into that of others.
Of course that would make everybody happy. But it's easier said than done, there are some small questions left unanswered - who has the right to arbitrate the differences? By what means that "balance" shall be maintained? Who has the right to lable others as aggressors?
Althouh I agree with Wenjer Leuschel in principle, I think it is hard to put this too good to be true idea into practice without controversy.
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[Edited at 2005-10-24 00:53]
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 18:48
English to Chinese
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| Dealing fair | Oct 22, 2005 |
Angus WU wrote: Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
Believe me, dear friends, all mentors give lectures to safeguard their own interest. But we take lessons only when they suit our own interest.
The best lecture is to safeguard the balance of "theirs" and "ours" as well as "yours" and "mine" which is sometimes not so much understandable to those people who become peacefully aggressive when their interest doesn't fit into that of others. Of course that would make everybody happy. But it's easier said than done, there are some small questions left unanswered - who has the right to arbitrate the differences? By what means that "balance" shall be maintained? Who has the right to lable others as aggressors? Althouh I agree with Wenjer Leuschel in principle, I think it is hard to put this too good to be true idea into practice without controversy.
Angus,
For sure, the Japanese "Great East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere" was a nice idea which I wouldn't object more strongly than a "Great Chinese Co-Proseperity Sphere", either. But we all know how it was pushed into China and what the outcome was.
Ideas may always be good while the means to achieve the result often evil. That's the problem. There is a passage in Hitler's "Mein Kampf" (Chapter 6, Rassendiskussion) stating that the Germans shall not be week in dealing with the question of Jews for there won't be any question after that the problem be solved, just like the Armenian question was no longer remembered after that the Turks had solved the problem. The same applies to the Turks, who were driven out of their orginal territory. Who will remember the history and rectify the wrongdoings (or rightdoings)?
Japanese way of dealing with China during the first half of the 20th century was wrong, not because of the idea behind it, but for what they did to achieve the result in their interest which might be in accordance with or in contradition of that of (some of) the Chinese people.
The principle I abide to would be: "Don't do to others whatever you wouldn't accept in their place." Quite the other way round as "Don't do to others what you don't want others do to you," huh?
My idea is just like what I said about the compensation for a translation job: Either you accept it or not; nobody urges you with a missile or a gun when you don't agree with the deal. People are smarter nowadays and they know what they want. They know how to protect/defend themselves. They know how to cut a deal fairly. There are things which nice girls don't do, but some girls do them nicely. Well, is'nt it clear enough how this world functions?
Wenjer
[Edited at 2005-10-22 15:15]
| | | | Xiaoping Fu
Canada
Local time: 03:48
Chinese to English
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Lesley McLachlan wrote: Angus WU wrote:
I would say that Kevin simply has said what most Chinese have in their mind. What makes I and Kevin different is the perception on the rationale of why there are so many, virtually countless teachers, mentors of all sorts are telling Chinese people how they should live their life, and with a burning desire. Surely there is reason for that.
The world is getting smaller and smaller, and painstakingly China is getting stronger and stronger. This former employee or menial (I just hate to use the expression “the inferior chink”) considered by some is becoming a business partner or worse even a family member. All the existing bosses naturally would react very cautiously. Of course they would like very much to lecture this new member. If they can’t stop the Chinese from rising, then at least “house-train” them, for the little village is already occupied.
The mentors are lecturing the Chinese to safeguard their “own” interest which of course is understandable.
Mentors? 哪儿有.做为成人还需要吗?我建议特别在Proz上都应该属于peers同仁,而不分上,下,内,外,也没有role model,前辈这些说法.大家认为如何?
我对 Lesley 的这个提议非常赞同！
我不希望被任何人称为“前辈”！请各位直呼我名字！
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 18:48
English to Chinese
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| 同意 Lesley 和傅先生的說法 | Oct 22, 2005 |
Lesley 的說法我很贊同！
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Kevin Yang
Local time: 03:48
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
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| 你没头没脑，让我长二和尚摸不着腰。 | Oct 22, 2005 |
Lesley McLachlan wrote:
Where do you draw the line...
Is it possible to go too far, or to be over-sensitive?
What about chauvinism, xenophobia, ultra-nationalism?(谁要?)
What about self-pity and self-indulgence?(大多数人会支持吗?)
Isn't some of this message counter-productive? What kind of people will support it? Couldn't it be an extreme view that will turn people off?
麦莱安(莱斯莉.安.麦克拉克伦),
你这番话，中英混用，指代不清，是从哪儿说起？你没头没脑，让我长二和尚摸不着腰。你是否又在针对我前面的发言有感而发？你把我搞得一头雾水。以后请你把对方的话援引出来，好让我有个上下文的联系。
自从你在北京语言学院学习中文以来，至今已有23个年头了，比我学习英文的时间稍稍短一些，你能坚持这么多年，也够难为你的。但是，让我搞不太懂的是，学习中文这么多年，仍然对中国、中国人、中国文化、中国成就充满偏见和误解，你让你的老乡，中国人民的老朋友路易•艾黎先生为你感到汗颜。你这种外国人，我还是第一回遇到。我对你说了那么多，看来是全白费了。是不是你在新西兰政府商业部的工作造就了你的这种恶劣态度，并使你变得如此顽固和傲慢？
为了帮助你学好中文，我把你上面使用的几个又臭又长的词汇翻译成了中文，并做出说明，以帮助读者更好地理解这些词汇，也供你作为家庭作业进一步提高中文：
1. chauvinism = 沙文主义；大民族主义：在一个民族因为拥有了海上霸权地位后，便肆无忌惮地向新大陆扩张，用残忍和卑鄙的手段占领他人的领土，掠夺当地的资源。然后，又凭借自己的武器和财源奴役和欺压原住民，把当地人当作不开化的动物，把自己却当作种族至上的强大民族，这就是所谓的沙文主义或大民族主义。这怎么好像是在说你的先人？
新西兰有15％的毛利人。在14世纪时，其土著民族毛利人在此居住，1642年荷兰航海者到达。1769－ 1777年英国库克船长先后5次到此，此后英国向这里大批移民，经过残忍的战争后，1840年英与毛利人签约，规定新为英国殖民地。1907年成为英国的自治领土，1947年独立，为英联邦成员。1840年，英国当局派遣特例与毛利人酋长们进行谈判，答应让酋长们完全拥有自己部落土地的所有权。然而，殖民主义者没有遵守自己的承诺，反而大肆掠夺毛利人的土地，这引起毛利人的强烈反抗，为此，爆发了两次大规模的战争。迫于毛利人的反抗，英国殖民当局不得不改变 政策，并且让毛利人在参、众两院拥有自己的席位。你是否属乌鸦？好像站在猪身上，只能看到猪黑，看不见自己黑。
2. xenophobia = 陌生人恐怖症：殖民主义者来到新大陆，带来了当地人从未经历疾病和病毒，致使疾病肆虐。牧师、传教士跟去了，他们让原住民闭上眼睛，双手迎接圣经，但是，等原住民睁开眼睛的时候，原住民手里捧回的是圣经，而传教士拿走的是原住民的土地。这些陌生人不恐怖，难道还可爱吗？从１９世纪一直到２０世纪上叶，新西兰政府对要求移居新西兰的华人推行了一系列歧视性政策，包括通过向他们征收人头税，和限定每人的入关重量等措施来限制他们入境。看来对陌生人和外来人的态度，你的国家和人民也不是来者不拒，见一个爱一个的。
3. ultra-nationalism = 极端民族主义：这是你的又一个可笑的谬论。中国坐在自己的家中，生活在自己的国度里都挨包括你祖先在内的外国人打，这种恶果对于你的祖先来说，充满自豪，让你们充分自我膨胀，满足了占有欲，因为这些侵略者认为你们自己的民族太优越了，世界所有的百姓，不分国界，都是劣等的，必须成为你们帝国的臣民，听由你们任意摆布。百姓稍有反抗情绪，抵制你们胡作非为，就被冠以民族主义，或极端民族主义。你的这种陈词滥调我听多了。
4. self-pity = 自怜：这个词用得奇怪。通常是指那种期待别人同情，但是得不到，只好自己同情自己，自己可怜自己的人。 你用来描述中国人，说明你对中国人有误解。我在前面的几个帖子里，从来没有乞求你的同情，我试图向你说明我是如何把历史与现实连在一起看问题的，并要求你使用相同的标准来对待和衡量中国人。你也不想想，我会期待你同情吗？你有那么重要吗？中国人会蠢到等着黄鼠狼给鸡拜年吗？
5. self-indulgence = 自我放纵；任性；纵欲：我想我又要对号入座了。既然你不敢明确指代，那我就可以认为你是根据前面由我和大家发表的意见而说的。我们的言词里是有兴奋和自豪的地方。这些中国人是在中文论坛里说中国的事，根本没有干涉新西兰的国家内政，也没有侵犯新西兰人民的主权，大家有所“放纵”，大家说的都是中国的事。你作为一个新西兰人，在这里像一颗酸葡萄，说不出一句合乎身份和场合的话，总是进行无端的挖苦、指责和讽刺，还以为我读不出来你的用意。你有没有想过把“自我放纵；任性；纵欲”用在你身上是否更贴切一些？
时来运转，山不转水转，中国人有了今天，你没有想到，你代表的一类人也没想到。但是对于这么一件好事，怎么就让你乐不起来呢? 你的标准和认知出了什么问题？怎么没有把你的标准用在包括你祖先的西方人身上？你好像对你自己的先辈和国家倒是很宽容的。我对你的公正性和客观性产生怀疑。论坛是供大家发表各种看法的，我注意到你对此事的反应始终是负面的，现在还用上述刻薄和夸张的词汇来形容这里的讨论，居然一度还使用了“法西斯”一词(你后来又作修改，把此词删除了)，你不觉得你的做法奇怪和无理吗？看来中国的和平崛起让你忧心忡忡了。怎么办呢？只好让你去自怜吧！
Kevin
[Edited at 2005-10-22 20:38]
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[Edited at 2005-10-24 00:54]
| | | | Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Taiwan
Local time: 18:48
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Life is beautiful that way. | Oct 22, 2005 |
Lesley McLachlan wrote:
When you (= people) post something in a forum, don't you (= people) expect a reaction, or various reactions? 到底forum是什么?
Dear Lesley,
I understand you pretty well, since I have been an outsider for the greatest part of my life. Foreigners, strangers and outsiders (the ones who were born to parients of rivalling social groups, tribes or nations) are usually either feared or shunned away. It took me a long time to figure out what a human life weighs.
The problem we have in this thread is that you hit a tabu. Chinese people were celebrating their success in exploring the space and you just came over to say something quite opposite from a simple "congratulations!" That would easily be taken as 觸人楣頭, I must say.
Of course, each one of us may have different opinions to anything, but we usually avoid such confrontations as 觸人楣頭. So, just relax and say "congratulations!" Like the quotation of Bertolt Brecht I posted once, there is almost no way to get rid of national sentiments. They are just to be respected like your own pride and honour. Things are not always right or wrong. What matters is to realize that they are just "different" and enjoy the differnces. Life is beautiful that way.
Wenjer
| | | | chance (X)
French to Chinese
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| 我觉得文哲对问题看得比较透彻 | Oct 22, 2005 |
这大概和他的内外经历以及善于思考有关。
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chance (X)
French to Chinese
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1. 神六首先是中国科技工作人员努力工作的结果。也是中国人民创造了财富，才有这种可能。
2. 当然也是中华民族的骄傲，每个民族都有自己的自豪感，就和我们每个人一样。只要这种骄傲不盲目，不走极端，不侵犯其它民族的利益，无可非议。
3. 正好政府需要这种“强心剂”来转移视线，应付内外困难。
| | | | Kevin Yang
Local time: 03:48
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Thank you for the voice of Hong Kong! | Oct 22, 2005 |
Angus WU wrote:
I would say that Kevin simply has said what most Chinese have in their mind. What makes I and Kevin different is the perception on the rationale of why there are so many, virtually countless teachers, mentors of all sorts are telling Chinese people how they should live their life, and with a burning desire. Surely there is reason for that.
The world is getting smaller and smaller, and painstakingly China is getting stronger and stronger. This former employee or menial (I just hate to use the expression “the inferior chink”) considered by some is becoming a business partner or worse even a family member. All the existing bosses naturally would react very cautiously. Of course they would like very much to lecture this new member. If they can’t stop the Chinese from rising, then at least “house-train” them, for the little village is already occupied.
The mentors are lecturing the Chinese to safeguard their “own” interest which of course is understandable.
Hi, Angus
Thank you for the input! I always want to listen to the linguists from Hong Kong to participate in this and every other discussion in this Forum, because you have a life experience that is so different from the Chinese in the mainland China. Your perspective is highly appreciated. I would also like to mention to you, I am very impressed by your English and your logical presentation. Your English is much better than the English native speakers I have seen. There, you got my validation!
Good point! It made good sense to me. The Chinese people start to pop up in just about every field everywhere and appear more often in the news media nowadays; it is understandable that the world needs time to adjust and get used to it. I can understand when a servant starts to take in charge, her master will certainly not be pleased. Would it be possible that there will be a day that the role can be switched, that is, the Chinese hire a Westerner to be the servant? Or such thought is considered a violation of someone's norm or standard?
In my opinion, a Chinese model can do the catwalk on runway as good as the models from other countries, even though the Chinese model doesn't get the same compensation or receive the same recognition. I have the patience and time to wait and see, because I should have at least another 20 years to live.
Kevin
[Edited at 2005-10-22 21:04]
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[Edited at 2005-10-24 05:52]
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