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翻译点滴 (Challenges in Interpretation)
Thread poster: David Shen

Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 11:07
English to Chinese
跌了眼镜 Aug 26, 2018

David Shen wrote:
 
好在我已到所谓“耳顺之年”不用愁这些了,所以读读古画。八十年代初曾有一阵子对唐伯虎的诗画着迷,今天细品一幅:

2015102418351666638384.jpg!s700
唐寅 《李端端乞诗图》,南京博物馆藏
 


提到唐伯虎,就想到“点秋香”的故事。卖身为奴追秋香的真是他吗?没想到,面对美如活牡丹的佳人,他能那么正襟危坐的。icon_smile.gif

看了这画,方知“三突出”的创作原则其来有自。icon_biggrin.gif


 

David Shen  Identity Verified
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So easy to give a translation, not so easy to give a good one Aug 26, 2018

《译名不怕拿不出,就怕理解不够足》

Fargoer wrote:
David Shen wrote:
《三人行,找译名》
 

译名拿不出,感想有一滴:

羡慕嫉妒爱
浪漫门第钱


Fargoer 君,

又等来一、两个。(你这两行是做一个片名呢,还是算两个不同的译名?)

就这么三个词:Crazy + Rich + Asians,你说把 crazy 翻成“疯狂”有什么难?连智能手机都用不着,小学生就能翻。

我就说嘛,会越抓越痒!我在提问之前就有几个版本,但自己拿不准作者这个 crazy 究竟是指什么,含有几层意思,所以提问。上来回应的几个译名都很好,各有不同的解读和侧重面。至少比我原来的好。

再等等看还会有的,等到一定的时候咱会列个单子。


Fargoer wrote:
跌了眼镜

提到唐伯虎,就想到“点秋香”的故事。卖身为奴追秋香的真是他吗?没想到,面对美如活牡丹的佳人,他能那么正襟危坐的。icon_smile.gif

看了这画,方知“三突出”的创作原则其来有自。icon_biggrin.gif


哈哈!

也别小看江青,在延安文艺座谈会上,别人只是谈谈而已,她可是身体力行的。在主席身边那么多年,功底再差也能学他几招!

哦对了:这坐着的不是画家本人。唐伯虎画的是唐代扬州名妓李端端和风流倜傥又目中无人的诗人崔涯的故事。
(老孙曾以崔涯词回复。)有关李、崔二人的相识,相怨和最后相好可见百度:
https://baike.baidu.com/item/李端端图/502503


 

Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 11:07
English to Chinese
又跌了眼镜 Aug 26, 2018

David Shen wrote:

《译名不怕拿不出,就怕理解不够足》

Fargoer wrote:
David Shen wrote:
《三人行,找译名》
 

译名拿不出,感想有一滴:

羡慕嫉妒爱
浪漫门第钱


Fargoer 君,

又等来一、两个。(你这两行是做一个片名呢,还是算两个不同的译名?)

就这么三个词:Crazy + Rich + Asians,你说把 crazy 翻成“疯狂”有什么难?连智能手机都用不着,小学生就能翻。

我就说嘛,会越抓越痒!我在提问之前就有几个版本,但自己拿不准作者这个 crazy 究竟是指什么,含有几层意思,所以提问。上来回应的几个译名都很好,各有不同的解读和侧重面。至少比我原来的好。

再等等看还会有的,等到一定的时候咱会列个单子。


Fargoer wrote:
跌了眼镜

提到唐伯虎,就想到“点秋香”的故事。卖身为奴追秋香的真是他吗?没想到,面对美如活牡丹的佳人,他能那么正襟危坐的。icon_smile.gif

看了这画,方知“三突出”的创作原则其来有自。icon_biggrin.gif


哈哈!

也别小看江青,在延安文艺座谈会上,别人只是谈谈而已,她可是身体力行的。在主席身边那么多年,功底再差也能学他几招!

哦对了:这坐着的不是画家本人。唐伯虎画的是唐代扬州名妓李端端和风流倜傥又目中无人的诗人崔涯的故事。
(老孙曾以崔涯词回复。)有关李、崔二人的相识,相怨和最后相好可见百度:
https://baike.baidu.com/item/李端端图/502503







哈哈!原来那不是唐伯虎。我还以为是他自况风流韵事呢。icon_biggrin.gif

唐寅的画和诗都名气甚高。我不太懂欣赏。看过他临摹的《韩熙载夜宴图》,还是比较喜欢传下来的无名仿品。icon_smile.gif

关于“crazy rich Asians” , 我都说了给不出译名。如果硬要凑个数,就叫 《谁让我家是土豪》。icon_smile.gif 可以理解为 “我是土豪我任性”,也可以理解为“无奈生在土豪家”。剧中男主人公起初刻意隐瞒自己的家世,可以理解为低调甚至无奈,也可以理解为让女友以后惊喜。金钱本身是个无比矛盾的东西,人对金钱的态度更是如此。


你说把 crazy 翻成“疯狂”有什么难?


“crazy"一词恰是这题目的妙处。如果说 “super rich Asians”,没有了讥讽的意味,对土豪的羡慕就露了俗气,嫉妒就没了来由,爱就失了纯美。但是如果直接翻译为“疯狂”,贬义太明白,有了歧视之嫌。亚裔和土豪都不舒服。icon_smile.gif

[修改时间: 2018-08-26 18:02 GMT]


 

David Shen  Identity Verified
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Your last paragraph is a large part of what I have been waiting to hear Aug 26, 2018

【翻译点滴】NOTES OF A TRANSLATOR 《要分析》

所等待的,就是像你最后的一段这类分析

Fargoer wrote:
David Shen wrote:
《译名不怕拿不出,就怕理解不够足》
《三人行,找译名》

译名拿不出,感想有一滴:

羡慕嫉妒爱
浪漫门第钱
......
David Shen wrote
你说把 crazy 翻成“疯狂”有什么难?


“crazy"一词恰是这题目的妙处。如果说 “super rich Asians”,没有了讥讽的意味,对土豪的羡慕就露了俗气,嫉妒就没了来由,爱就失了纯美。但是如果直接翻译为“疯狂”,贬义太明白,有了歧视之嫌。亚裔和土豪都不舒服。icon_smile.gif


如果现译名“疯狂的亚裔富豪”的译者也像你这样想过,他/她就会觉得这个看似简单的片名其实很不简单。

在还没看过影片的基础上,wherestip 是最先提出这个 crazy 可以是修饰 rich 的。而大部分的人一看片名,都想当然地认为 crazy 是指亚裔。

在不看影片的情况下作分析,这个片名 (Crazy Rich Asians) 不外乎有这几种可能:

1) They are Asians, they are rich, and they are crazy! =我曾译为《亚裔富豪发神经》
2) These Asians are insanely rich or incredibly wealthy. =《豪门只管寻开心》
3) Both of the above, where the word "crazy" is intended to serve both purposes or used as a pun. (等待共识,和更多译文版本。)

现在看了影片简介,第一种理解是错的。
“摸棱两可”似乎是中文的优势 (The Chinese are well trained in their mastery and sense of ambiguity),但决非中文才有,其它语种中也都有有意影含的双重或多重意思。关键就在于做翻译的要认得出来。一旦认识到之后,就看你怎么掺和了。原文中的‘一语双关’如在译文中实在找不到对应的时候(这种时候很多),翻译是只抓其一,不翻其二呢?还是两个都不要,干脆另起炉灶,自己分析后来一个总结式的名称?也就是说:
翻译为了传神,可以任意改名。
这大约就是 PK Chan 所说的香港译电影名从来都是喜欢另取名字而不为原文所囿的道理。这么做显然是为了最终效果。

当然这“任”的是翻译的意。他既要领悟原意,又要顺从民意,还想自己得意,真不容易!一个人讲得太多无益,想听听其他各位的见解。


[Edited at 2018-08-27 05:58 GMT]


 

wherestip  Identity Verified
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2) These Asians are insanely rich or incredibly wealthy Aug 27, 2018

David Shen wrote:

【翻译点滴】NOTES OF A TRANSLATOR 《要分析》

所等待的,就是像你最后的一段这类分析

Fargoer wrote:
David Shen wrote:
《译名不怕拿不出,就怕理解不够足》
《三人行,找译名》

译名拿不出,感想有一滴:

羡慕嫉妒爱
浪漫门第钱
......
David Shen wrote
你说把 crazy 翻成“疯狂”有什么难?


“crazy"一词恰是这题目的妙处。如果说 “super rich Asians”,没有了讥讽的意味,对土豪的羡慕就露了俗气,嫉妒就没了来由,爱就失了纯美。但是如果直接翻译为“疯狂”,贬义太明白,有了歧视之嫌。亚裔和土豪都不舒服。icon_smile.gif


如果现译名“疯狂的亚裔富豪”的译者也像你这样想过,他/她就会觉得这个看似简单的片名其实很不简单。

在还没看过影片的基础上,wherestip 是最先提出这个 crazy 可以是修饰 rich 的。而大部分的人一看片名,都想当然地认为 crazy 是指亚裔。

在不看影片的情况下作分析,这个片名 (Crazy Rich Asians) 不外乎有这几种可能:

1) They are Asians, they are rich, and they are crazy! =我曾译为《亚裔富豪发神经》
2) These Asians are insanely rich or incredibly wealthy. =《豪门只管寻开心》
3) Both of the above, where the word "crazy" is intended to serve both purposes or used as a pun. (等待共识,和更多译文版本。)

现在看了影片简介,第一种理解是错的。
“摸棱两可”似乎是中文的优势 (The Chinese are well trained in their mastery and sense of ambiguity),但决非中文才有,其它语种中也都有有意影含的双重或多重意思。关键就在于做翻译的要认得出来。一旦认识到之后,就看你怎么掺和了。原文中的‘一语双关’如在译文中实在找不到对应的时候(这种时候很多),翻译是只抓其一,不翻其二呢?还是两个都不要,干脆另起炉灶,自己分析后来一个总结式的名称?也就是说:
翻译为了传神,可以任意改名。
这大约就是 PK Chan 所说的香港译电影名从来都是喜欢另取名字而不为原文所囿的道理。这么做显然是为了最终效果。

当然这“任”的是翻译的意。他既要领悟原意,又要顺从民意,还想自己得意,真不容易!一个人讲得太多无益,想听听其他各位的见解。



Hi, guys. I agree with what you're saying.

I took a cue from QHE, and went to YouTube to take a look at one of the official trailers of "Crazy Rich Asians".

Here are some snippets of dialog in the trailer:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ-YX-5bAs0


“The Nick you’re dating is Nick Young.”
“You guys know them or something?”
“Hell yeah. They’re just the biggest developers in all of Singapore.”


“Damn right, it’s like “The Asian Bachelor””
“These people aren’t just rich, they’re crazy rich.”


“Hey, you know you should have told me that you’re like the Prince William of Asia.”
“That’s ridiculous, much more of a Harry.”




In addition, here are some catchphrases flashed across the screen ...



Every family has its crazy …

Crazy Rich Friends
Crazy Rich Family
Crazy Rich Food
Crazy Rich Style
Crazy Rich Parties
Crazy Rich Mother
Crazy Rich Love
Crazy Rich Asians




[Edited at 2018-08-27 11:51 GMT]


 

wherestip  Identity Verified
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3) Both of the above, where the word "crazy" is intended to serve both purposes or used as a pun. Aug 27, 2018



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G9UNULKI3Q

Henry Golding: But unbeknownst to Rachel, he is an heir to a family of very vast family fortune in Singapore, so when we go back for a wedding, she runs the gauntlet of cousins, of crazy exes, of ridiculous mothers-in-law …”

Constance Wu: And all the girls in Singapore want him, and I don’t know that. So I get there, and I’m kind of like bullied, because they’re all like … trying to get at this hunk …



So customary usage of the phrase "crazy rich" from a language perspective aside, perhaps there's also some craziness hinted in the title.   icon_biggrin.gif


David Lin
 

wherestip  Identity Verified
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Brilliant, fun romcom Aug 27, 2018

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4wrvjOfaWs

Topped box office two weeks in a row   icon_smile.gif


 

wherestip  Identity Verified
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A couple of clips worth watching ... Aug 27, 2018

Crazy diverse roads to 'Crazy Rich Asians'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2enxnkZcRqA

Actors And Director Discuss Film’s Impact
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY8LGFA0xug




~*~*~*~*~*

BTW, I like QHE's “绝顶豪门”   icon_smile.gif

Like I said, I haven't watched the movie, but just from watching some of the clips , trailers, and interviews, I think the success and popularity of the film just might be on the level of "Pretty Woman".


[Edited at 2018-08-27 15:09 GMT]


 

wherestip  Identity Verified
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Thumbs down Sep 3, 2018

After seeing the movie at the theater - hoodwinked by the hype icon_frown.gif

 

David Shen  Identity Verified
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Plot of the play? Sep 4, 2018

情节如何?

wherestip wrote:

After seeing the movie at the theater - hoodwinked by the hype icon_frown.gif


Steve,

Now that you've seen the "big-shot" of Hollywood's Asian movies after a long while. Is it basically a romance/love story or is it more of a flashy fashion gala show of luxury of the affluent few among Asians?


 

wherestip  Identity Verified
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Disappointed Sep 4, 2018

David Shen wrote:

情节如何?

wherestip wrote:

After seeing the movie at the theater - hoodwinked by the hype icon_frown.gif


Steve,

Now that you've seen the "big-shot" of Hollywood's Asian movies after a long while. Is it basically a romance/love story or is it more of a flashy fashion gala show of luxury of the affluent few among Asians?


David,

It's more of the latter - all glitter and no substance.

However, it does try to depict one of the more sensitive generational relationship subjects in traditional (or stereotypical, depending on how you view it) Oriental culture, namely 婆媳关系. The future mother-in-law, Nick's mother Eleanor, and the family's matriarch Ah Ma, Nick's grandmother on his father side, do not welcome Rachael into the family, and some friction ensues. Eventually, Nick's mother does relent and there is somewhat of a happy ending to the story - a truce between Eleanor and Rachael - albeit reluctantly and IMO unconvincingly.

I felt that many of the characters were shallowly developed, perhaps because much of the material from the first book (of the trilogy) had to be crammed into the limited framework of a movie.

Personally, I don't quite get what all the hoopla is about, except that the movie had an all-Asian cast and had a relatively big budget.  icon_biggrin.gif

[Edited at 2018-09-04 11:46 GMT]


 

David Shen  Identity Verified
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A Bit of History & Art History Sep 18, 2018

【翻译点滴】 NOTES OF A TRANSLATOR
《历史与画史拾贝》

前些天,Fargoer 君见唐寅《李端端图》时说这下知道了“三突出”创作原则是从哪儿来的了。这论坛上有一定年纪的人都知道他指的是什么,只是将明代画家的手法和文革时期的革命文艺指导原则联系起来,效果十分诙谐。

为了不走题,我当时没立刻顺着此话题再谈下去。今日有空,不妨再将此题评论一番。其实,为了突出某个人物而将其画得比周围其他人高大一些(这种做法)并非唐伯虎的发明,这种画法早在唐代就已成熟。最佳的例子莫过于唐代阎立本的《历代帝王图》,画上的十三位帝王都明显地画得比他们周围的侍从要高大,不仅如此,人物刻画也更仔细,甚至可以看出人物性格。(从汉昭帝起画到隋炀帝杨广,期间帝王上百人,画家只选开国之君、或有大作为、或臭名昭著者。)

C42066CR-d1_4x3.jpg?itok=T6lOH5kE
阎立本《历代帝王图》局部

https://mfas3.s3.amazonaws.com/objects/SC203706.jpg
《历代帝王图》全图

早期的中国画和西洋画都是以画宗教题材开始的,所不同的是西洋人物画大约从十三世纪起才出现,而中国在唐代人物画已达高峰,宋代时山水画的崛起(10th-12th century)使人物画变得不那么重要了,或者说,等西洋人物画还在草创间段时,中国人对人物画的热情已经过了。所以中国古代人物画传世的很少,唐代留下来的真迹更是风毛鳞足。而这卷阎立本的《历代帝王图》是中国人物画精品中的精品,如今藏于波士顿美术馆(the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston)。

我好几次提到波士顿美术馆是因为几次去看到的馆藏中国画都是画史上的精品。该馆能有此等眼力,当然与它一贯对东方艺术的重视是分不开的,但很重要的一个原因是上世纪初它雇用了几个东、西方艺术兼懂的人,其中日人冈仓天心(Okakura Kakuzo)为该馆立下了汗马功劳。可以说冈仓天心是一眼看穿东西方文明区别的日本人。但是他却认为:为了和平,不惜发动战争。这只能说是包裹在“和服里面的理论”,敞开一扇实难闻。(A theory born inside a kimono, that smells bad when aired.)

写于2018年之九·一八
D.S.2018.0918.a

For those of you who care to know more on this topic:

唐代阎立本的《历代帝王图》
波士顿美术馆(the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston)之亚洲艺术馆藏
冈仓天心(Okakura Kakuzo)


[Edited at 2018-09-18 19:52 GMT]


 

David Shen  Identity Verified
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Translator's Day 2018 Sep 25, 2018


《2018 翻译节》

铁 匠 木 匠 工 具 列,
和 尚 道 士 钟 鼓 别。
笔 记 电 脑 一 张 嘴,
翻 译 有 了 自 己 节。

Hallelujah!
是翻译的,今天大家什么都别翻。

[Edited at 2018-09-25 23:13 GMT]
我高兴得太早了,查了一下,原来要到九月三十号。那就整个星期都不翻译,出去玩!


[Edited at 2018-09-25 23:18 GMT]


 

David Shen  Identity Verified
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Master martial arts novelist Louis Cha (Jing-yong) passed away yesterday. Nov 1, 2018


《金大侠一路走好!》


看 似 虚 构 辨 却 真,
笔 下 人 物 栩 栩 生。
笑 傲 江 湖 几 十 年,
文 中 最 武 文 曲 星。

62aa33918f814ee081dc632be4a96013.jpeg?imageView&thumbnail=550x0
金庸 (查良镛)1924.0310-2018.1030 © 明河社

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/金庸


 

David Shen  Identity Verified
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We can make translation simple too, if we charge enough to. Nov 2, 2018

《要翻译,也容易》

Here is an ad on MSN today (2018.1102) on rates of transcription, not translation. But it should give us some idea of how much to charge for translation services. If somebody is charging $1 per minute for writing down what people said in their own language (that is $60/hour), and he or she is not even translating into another language, what should we be charging for our translations? Would it be fair for us to charge at least half as much, say $30/hour to translate?


Audio Transcription Made Simple


For years, I have posted on my ProZ profile page that my rate is $60/hour. (I based this rate on the auto mechanic who repairs my car.) I have never got a job from here. I do get inquiries from time to time, but I guess my rates must have been scaring potential clients away. Most of my translation projects over the years come from old clients among artists and museums, and I always charge by word count, which is easier to calculate.

This post is not meant to advertise myself, I don't need to, but to remind fellow translators that you have to charge enough to survive. To those of you who are charging peanuts for projects here, you are killing yourself, and fellow translators by accepting rates as low as $0.02 per word. 为了抢活接低价,害了自己害大家。

Click the link below and you can read a sample of what kind of text they are transcribing. I guess most of the stuff we are translating is not daily conversation. Most translation jobs are related to a specific field, if not highly technical or academic.

https://www.rev.com/transcript-editor/sandbox

I wish we have more business savvy colleagues here to remind us on the business side of the translation business and new trends in dealing with machine translations.


 
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翻译点滴 (Challenges in Interpretation)

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