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Off topic: 美国“Global Internet Freedom Act”能够在国会两院通过吗?
Thread poster: xxxchance
xxxchance
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Jul 21, 2006

http://francechinexpress.online.fr/chine/WangLuoZiYou_medias21072006.asx

IBM在二次大战的那段历史还是第一次听说。


[Edited at 2006-07-21 16:13]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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It's anyone's guess Jul 21, 2006

chance wrote:

美国“Global Internet Freedom Act”能够在国会两院通过吗?



But my hunch is it won't pass. Just think what a mess it would be for the Chinese government and the U. S. companies.

These high tech companies were forced to play ball with the Chinese government, BTW.

http://www.house.gov/list/press/nj04_smith/prGOFAsubmarkup.html

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-4780

http://www.forbes.com/business/feeds/afx/2006/02/16/afx2531410.html

chance wrote:

IBM在二次大战的那段历史还是第一次听说。



IBM has a long history. I'm not sure what the real story is.

http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/history_intro.html



[Edited at 2006-07-21 20:29]


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Jianjun Zhang  Identity Verified
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有啥用? Jul 22, 2006

通過又有啥用?我國有我國的法,任由你翻江倒海,我自巋然不動。:D 不過 IBM 的做法倒是值得思考,在日本偷襲美國珍珠港以前,美國軍火大批賣給日本,現在不是也一面遵守三個公報,一面賣武器給台灣麼?薩達姆不也曾經受惠於美國麼?只要時局有利,老美就去做,從來不管後果如何的。好了,又要談政治,頭痛了,到此為止。(以上我的一面之詞,大家莫當真。)

chance wrote:

http://francechinexpress.online.fr/chine/WangLuoZiYou_medias21072006.asx

IBM在二次大战的那段历史还是第一次听说。


[Edited at 2006-07-21 16:13]


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xxxchance
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各国在历史上都有犯错误的时候,包括法国美国等 Jul 22, 2006

但是现在的社会比较注意道德,公众舆论可以起到监督作用,说明人类历史还是往进步方向发展。但是有的国家就可以岿然不动,还是有区别的。

关于卖武器给TW,我不太同意你的看法,历史上遗留下来的问题,应该尊重当事人的意愿,在这个问题上,咄咄逼人的不是TW。


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xxxchance
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刚才快速过了IBM网站30-40年代的历史,确实看不出任何消息 Jul 22, 2006

我怀疑当时的技术是否真能提供这种名单,即便技术水平达到了,也要当时各国政府的配合才能得到这样的名单,或者只是德国境内名单?

当然,即便确有其事,IBM也不一定在他们的网站上宣传。

wherestip wrote:

chance wrote:

IBM在二次大战的那段历史还是第一次听说。



IBM has a long history. I'm not sure what the real story is.

http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/history/history_intro.html



[Edited at 2006-07-21 20:29]


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Wenjer Leuschel  Identity Verified
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如果可以不需要武器保護自己 Jul 22, 2006

我有一位當警官的朋友,名字叫林保家。認識他的時候,對他的名字印象深刻,因為他的自我介紹是:我叫林保家,雙木林,保護家己的保家 (台灣人說自己是家己)。然後他說:如果家己都不能保護,怎能保護別人;我當警官就是因為我先能保護家己,然後保護別人。

台灣在歷史上一向是被賣來賣去的。誰打敗了仗就把台灣賣給勝方。稱為台灣人的各民族移民在整個歷史中老是尋找著祖國,直到他們發現原來祖國是自己腳踩著的土地。如果能夠和世界統一,我相信台灣這塊土地上的人都很願意做地球公民;可惜這個世界有許多國家,台灣人莫名其妙在二戰後成為中國流寇的囊中物,然後人家說他們的祖國是中國,可他們卻很清楚他們的祖國只能在他們能控制的範圍內;由別人控制的不會是他們的祖國。在這樣的情況下,他們能夠不保護家己嗎?

如果可以不需要武器就能保護自己,那該有多好,省下許多錢做許多永續發展的建設,何樂不為?問題是,台灣人見識過一個自稱祖國的流寇政權,然後還有一個經常威嚇他們的更惡霸的政權說是要和那個失敗的流寇政權和解,好讓台灣人沒有他們所珍惜的腳下的祖國--不買武器行嗎?

老美對台灣的政策一向模糊,三個建交公報也留著詮釋的空間。所謂詮釋的空間就是 "誰能誰拿去"。美國在台灣的利益可分經常和遠期的利益:經常利益就是賣武器和其它貿易利益,遠期利益則是戰略布局的利益。

二戰後美國支持中國人丟出來的流寇政權在台灣生根,最主要原因在於戰略布局。這個戰略布局的方向至今不變,台灣人很清楚,所以買不買武器對他們而言其實也不重要。重要的倒是在於中國的人民是否有能力改變他們的政治文化,是否讓人覺得中國是一隻可愛的貓熊或是一條可怖的惡龍。

台灣人其實和新加坡人一樣,很能敦親睦鄰;對於亞洲大陸的遠親和近鄰,他們的態度是親善的,希望能共創永續經營之利益的。可惜在今日世界的局勢下,台灣人即使知道,真要打仗,家己絕對不是人家的對手,但他們卻不能不買武器。背後的道理無法三言兩語說清楚,但幸好也還有美國賣武器給台灣人,還有美國、日本、新加坡和中美洲一些親美國家和台灣切磋軍事。

何以必須拿起武器?*真的是為了保護自己?其實舉雙腿投降也未嘗不是弱勢者保護自己的方法之一。狗在狼群裡隨著狼嚎叫,小命或許還能保住。不過,台灣的地位情況還沒那麼糟糕;台灣像是個姑娘,不管被出賣了多少次也還希望人家明媒正娶,而不是霸王硬上弓。

* 「何以必須拿起武器?」是一九六零年代,正當中國的文化大革命如火如荼地展開時,台灣的蔣經國勉勵從軍青年的一本小冊子。距離廖承志寫「渡盡劫波兄弟在」大約十五到十八年,距離蔣經國開放探親大約二十到二十四年。我個人認為當今應該有人寫一本「何以必須放下武器?」或「人民有投降的權利」之類的小冊子。


[Edited at 2006-07-22 15:37]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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History Jul 22, 2006

chance wrote:

我怀疑当时的技术是否真能提供这种名单,即便技术水平达到了,也要当时各国政府的配合才能得到这样的名单,或者只是德国境内名单?

当然,即便确有其事,IBM也不一定在他们的网站上宣传。



http://news.com.com/Probing%20IBMs%20Nazi%20connection/2009-1082_3-269157.html

Chance,

There were indeed such accusations, specifically a book written by Edwin Black in 2001. There were also lawsuits filed by some holocaust victims.

IBM acknowledged that their Hollerith punch-card machines and technology were used at the time. And did apologize to the holocaust victims. But their real "active" involvement is still unclear, IMO.

Unlike the person in that interview, 我觉得中国当权者自古以来实行的愚民政策和德国当年迫害犹太人是不能同日而语的.

We all realize that these American high tech companies were forced to go along with the Chinese government's demands. The unequivocal position of the Chinese government on sovereignty is also well known. I doubt if any bill passed by the U. S. Congress would make any difference. It would only serve to tie the hands of U. S. high tech companies; the Chinese would just turn to the Europeans if needed.

IMHO it's a sensitive issue. Let's see how it plays out.


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Chinoise  Identity Verified
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Agree... Jul 22, 2006

wherestip wrote:

chance wrote:

美国“Global Internet Freedom Act”能够在国会两院通过吗?



But my hunch is it won't pass. Just think what a mess it would be for the Chinese government and the U. S. companies.

These high tech companies were forced to play ball with the Chinese government, BTW.



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wherestip  Identity Verified
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我自岿然不动 Jul 22, 2006

wherestip wrote:

... the Chinese would just turn to the Europeans if needed.



That's a big "if" BTW. IMO the days of China's dependency on superior high-tech products from foreign companies are numbered.

Companies like Lenovo, Huawei, and Baidu already possess the critical mass in high-tech knowhow, and are globally recognized major forces to be reckoned with.


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Another thought Jul 22, 2006

If this ever got passed, it would be the ultimate ineptness of U. S. politicians.

These U. S. companies spent years exporting technical knowhow to obtain a foothold in the Chinese market, just to see their efforts flushed down the drain by a bunch of so-called human rights advocates in Congress.

The Chinese authorities would be the only beneficiaries. Now they've got the technology, and would continue with their policies and practices.

Oh, the irony of it all.


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xxxchance
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It's true. Jul 22, 2006

wherestip wrote:

The Chinese authorities would be the only beneficiaries. Now they've got the technology, and would continue with their policies and practices.

Oh, the irony of it all.


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Last Hermit
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For your reference. Jul 23, 2006

Kevin, please feel free to delete this if you see this will lead to a hot debate, or as a breach of the rules of the forum.

(Anti's @ blog-city)  February 17, 2006.

(in translation)
On the eve of the US Congressional Hearings directed against the four big Internet companies (Microsoft, Google, Yahoo and Cisco) about their coloration with the Chinese government, I am writing to state that I believe that this has nothing to with us whatsoever.  This is a purely internal American affair.  When we Chinese who love freedom attempt to promote freedom of expression, we never thought that the right for freedom of expression ought to be protected by the US Congress.  Every single blog post of mine was written in Chinese, and every sentence was written for my compatriots.  I have no interest to cater to the interests of foreign readers.
I have always had a strong sentiment: the reason why a country is great is because at its darkest and toughest moments, there were always young people who love this earth and will not forsake their dreams to pursue the freedom, democracy, security and wealth for their people.  These dreams are not provided by the United States.  These dreams can only be realized by ourselves.  Only the Chinese can continue to maintain the hope to continue to fight for the political future in the face of despair.  Only the Chinese can maintain the faith in reversing the course of a river that has been contaminated.
This is our country.  This is our earth.  We must let this generation bring freedom, democracy, security and wealth to China.  This is where we and our children will belong forever.  The defeat of China will be our defeat for our whole lives.  There can be no lucky ones in a time of chaos.  A failed country will cause us to be the object of contempt no matter where we are.  When foreigners repeatedly use "totalitarian" to describe China, this is a deep shame for me as a Chinese person.  This shame cannot ever be forgotten.
These kind of sentiments cannot be understood by foreigners.  When the US Congress holds a hearing about Internet freedom in China, this is an American affair.  When the US Congress proposes Internet freedom of information legislation, this is truly treating the freedom of the Chinese netizens as maids that they can dress up as they see fit.
The proposed legislation even included this: when American companies interfere with information from the American government communications  (such as the Congressional Human Rights Report, Voice of America, Radio Free Asia), they will be severely fined and the responsible persons will be jailed.  Anyone with commonsense should know that American companies such as Google and MSN Spaces will be forced to quit the Chinese market.  Then we will be left with the damned Baidu, our national blog service providers and the monitored email boxes.
I cannot help but ask: Mr. Congressmen, is your proposed legislation intended to protect the freedom of information for the netizens in China, or is it intended to protect the freedom of information from the United States government?  If it is the first, then how is it that after we are "protected," our freedom is in fact reduced?  If it is the latter, then why are you saying that this is about the freedom of information for the Chinese netizens?
Companies such as Microsoft and Google have provided Chinese netizens with much freedom of information over these years.  They have begun to compromise recently.  This is the shame of American companies as well as the shame of the Chinese people.  The solution from the American side is that these companies must adhere to their bottom lines and be more responsible.  Not only do you need the Chinese market, but China also needs these American companies.  Your negotiation conditions are not getting fewer, but there are more.  The Chinese netizens need freedom to grow more and more.
For the US Congressional representatives who think that everything is black-and-white, the absurd proposal is that "compromise=retreat."   They even treat the freedom of the Chinese netizens as a maid that they can dress us as they wish.  This proves once again: the freedom and rights of the Chinese people can only be won by the Chinese people themselves.
The only true way of solving the Internet blockage in China is this: every Chinese youth with conscience must practice and expand their freedom and oppose any blockage and suppression every day.  This is the country that we love.  Nobody wants her to be free more than we do.  I am proud to be your compatriot.
At the end of my statement, I must state once again that I have mentioned only Microsoft and Google as the American companies, but it is definitely not Yahoo!  A company such as Yahoo! which gives up information is unforgivable.  It would be for the good of the Chinese netizens if such a company could be shut down or get out of China forever.

And Rebecca MacKinnon, a CNN-reporter-turned blogger, has been all the more keen on matterS of this kind. Her recent blogpost
 






[Edited at 2006-07-23 16:58]


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xxxchance
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看了隐士的帖子有几点想法,但不想深谈。 Jul 23, 2006

出贴人大概很年轻,没比较就无鉴别,根本不知道什么是 "totalitarian" ,这个词是用来形容统治者的,作者有什么可以觉得耻辱的?最好能够把狭隘的民族主义和爱国主义区分开来。

作者不是从来都用中文出贴吗?这里为什么要用英语?从另一个角度讲,这样的狭隘民族主义当然会让统治者放心的!


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Last Hermit
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大姐,您没看清楚。 Jul 23, 2006

  这是Roland Soong的翻译,清清楚楚写着“In translation”(原文我们大陆的没法看到)。您如果关心这方面,这个作者您不可不知。他就是让微软最为头疼的一个人物,名叫安替,“Anti”。微软给人炮轰,主要就是因为他们把安替的博客删掉,引起轩然大波,全球一发不可收拾。

chance wrote:
作者不是从来都用中文出贴吗?这里为什么要用英语?从另一个角度讲,这样的狭隘民族主义当然会让统治者放心的!


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xxxchance
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对不起,我看到了“In translation”,但没搞清楚是谁翻的。 Jul 23, 2006

这个人物我也没听说过,也许偶然听到过,但没记住。不管怎么说,我很难同意他的一部分观点。

Last Hermit wrote:

  这是Roland Soong的翻译,清清楚楚写着“In translation”(原文我们大陆的没法看到)。您如果关心这方面,这个作者您不可不知。他就是让微软最为头疼的一个人物,名叫安替,“Anti”。微软给人炮轰,主要就是因为他们把安替的博客删掉,引起轩然大波,全球一发不可收拾。

chance wrote:
作者不是从来都用中文出贴吗?这里为什么要用英语?从另一个角度讲,这样的狭隘民族主义当然会让统治者放心的!


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美国“Global Internet Freedom Act”能够在国会两院通过吗?

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