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您能接受两千字的免费样本翻译吗?(A sample translation of 2000 words was requested)
Thread poster: Julia Zou
Xiaoping Fu
Xiaoping Fu  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 04:47
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读三国掉眼泪 Mar 4, 2007

Shaunna wrote:

Fu大哥好cute,對這個男人的所為比我(一個女人)還要耿耿于懷。不過第一眼看見他竟和她生活了三四年就把自己的四個孩子都扔下了也很氣憤。


我这个人修行不够,做不到无怒、无嗔的境界,常常会对有些事情“耿耿于怀”。:-D

但是,文学还有必要存在,就是因为人们都有喜怒哀乐、爱恨情仇。文学家在作品中往往不会作直接的道德评判,但他们的作品却一定要在读者的心中引起道德的反响。

人们往往自觉不自觉地对号入坐。把脚穿进“父亲”的鞋子里,会感到那女人可怕。这虽然不算道德评判,但也是一种价值观念,也是一种好恶选择。可是,如果想想那些无助的孩子,谁能说一声“误会”就一走了之,把自己与前妻生的孩子也一并留给那个“可怕”的女人?

作者没有用贬损的语言来批判他的父亲的行为。但他以平淡的口气说出的事实,令人震惊。父亲母亲的婚姻破裂,确实是因为性格不和。但父亲处理的方式却令人难以置信。自己害怕了,逃避了。说得好听点,去找好的归宿了。可女人呢?还不知道自己为什么被抛弃。还在那里满怀着爱的幸福回忆,带着自己生的和前妻生的孩子们苦苦空等。作者在做这些描述时,心中没有价值判断?他没有说出来,留给了读者。

至于究竟这么翻译“this frightened man”,我倒是比较赞同文哲的“这个吓坏了的男人”。“怯懦”二字已经在字缝里了。:-)


 
Xiaoping Fu
Xiaoping Fu  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 04:47
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别这么夸我 Mar 4, 2007

Shaun Yeo wrote:

Xiaoping Fu wrote:
我对原文的理解和各位有点不一样,可能有些偏颇,说出来供大家参考。
我的感觉是,“She was too honest, too natural for this frightened man; too remote from his tidy laws”,这句话的潜台词是“这个怯懦的男人根本不配有这样好的女人...(下略)

Xiaoping兄真是一言惊醒梦中人呀!英语原有"too...for..."的惯用法,我忽略了。这里,我完全同意Xiaoping兄的看法。佩服佩服!


姚兄过奖了!我在英文文法方面的功夫,远不及在此的许多朋友。我比较赞同你的“因果说”,但苦于找不到令人信服的文法的解释。Shaunna 的解释有点道理,可她自己又说文法上不太立得住。我也不敢插嘴了。:-) 从感觉上讲,我也觉得“父亲”所害怕的应该是后半句的“too remote”,害怕驾驭不了她。


 
Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Wenjer Leuschel (X)  Identity Verified
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Local time: 19:47
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新浪網上的翻譯 Mar 4, 2007

Xiaoping Fu wrote:

但是,文学还有必要存在,就是因为人们都有喜怒哀乐、爱恨情仇。文学家在作品中往往不会作直接的道德评判,但他们的作品却一定要在读者的心中引起道德的反响。


"对于这个虚荣的男人来说,她太纯真,丝毫不矫揉造作,对于有许多清规戒律的他来说,她离标准距离太过遥远。" 對 the frightened man 這樣的處理更是過了頭的詮釋。

從新浪網上的整個翻譯版本來看,故事並不太複雜,而且許多東西只是點到為止,等於是作者對自己的成長做了一些省思,對自己其實也有不少批判。這小說寫得誠實,沒有表現得好像他生來就是這麼一位作家一般,而是利用描述他的生長環境中的種種演化,把他的成長路程描繪出來。這樣的自傳小說不虛假,當然動人。

有些小說描寫人物,採取定型的方式,對善惡是非只有兩極的分辨,對不經人間世事洗禮的人而言,也許容易相信,但誠實的人仔細審查自己行走的人生路程,審查自己的心路歷程,便會發現表象看到的不一定真,真實的不一定會在表象上呈現出來,而是往往會被掩蓋起來,美化自己、醜化別人等等情況在人間不斷發生。

同樣是自傳小說,Jack London 的 Martin Eden 也是相當誠實的敘述。我曾經把 Martin Eden 借給某位四十出頭的人讀,她說:Ruth 的性格像是 The Great Gatsby 裡那位 Daisy 和她的先生,這類的人到處都有,他們只管自己的幸福,不管別人的死活。我說:不對,Ruth 和 Daisy 的性格完全不同,Daisy 的先生 Tom Buchanan 更是不同,他們達到各自目的的方式很是不同;分析人間世事,千萬避免使用套式的歸類方法,這樣會比較不受到表象的迷惑。

Martin Eden 和 Cidar with Rosie 雖然同樣是自傳小說,前者以第三人稱寫,後者以第一人稱寫,但兩者共同之處是,兩位作者對 "成長" 的處理都相當細心。

文學不一定做道德判斷,無論直接或間接,這在高行健的作品裡很強烈可以看出來。高的作品裡簡直沒有道德判斷,但同樣動人。為什麼呢?拆開來說,誠實而已。人們傾向於愛恨分明,因為那樣子過日子似乎比較簡單些,但其實那會使得生活更為紊亂,就像 Laurie Lee 寫他的母親紊亂的一生一樣,至死還不知道她的問題在何處。文學欣賞的要義,我覺得鹿橋在他的《人子》裡的〈汪洋〉那篇中說得最抽象也最明白:

 離進大學還有好幾個月呢,已經天天在議論幾所名大學有什麼異同,理工或是文法課程都怎麼樣。再往遠一點兒看,索性連畢業以後的生活同事業都用權威的口氣,一套又一套不斷地說。
 這種話越聽得多,越難叫人相信有真價值。大家只像是一夥膽怯的探險隊員,在出發前偏愛炫耀對於陌生旅途的知識同看法。其實所說的話自己也不相信,並且說時連聲音都是顫抖著的。
 我們一生之中,多少重大的決策都是在知識不充分時,就不得不勉強拿定的!我們為什麼必須在無知的情況下,就把寶貴的明天抵押出去了?把我們的明天抵押給學業、前途、戀愛、婚姻、事業、甚至哲學理想?
 知識之外影響人生的還有時間。人生經驗裡經常孕育著見解上的改變。時間就是改變的產婆。......

 忽然,人事的成敗與是非,哲理的正宗與異端,看來都只像時間的產物,一條又一條歷史的河流,各有其悠遠的淵源,有蜿蜒的沖匯,又時時有激起的怒濤。最後還是一齊進了汪洋大海沒了蹤影。這裡哪一滴水來自哪一條河,又有誰能肯定?
 汪洋靜止的時候,不起也不落,只是無限的大,也就象徵著現實的整體。
 汪洋運動起來的時候,不來也不去,無限力量,聚集不散,就是永恒的化身。......

 這時,在他心智裡微微地又生出許多渺茫的意境。這裡面有許多景象同故事。他只無言地與這位慈祥的長者,這位昔日的暴君、今日的良友,沉默地一同欣賞這些景象、經驗、同故事。


Wenjer: 刪節了許多,所以最後的 "這位慈祥的長者,這位昔日的暴君、今日的良友" 可能看不出是誰--他,就是 "時間"。看故事,需要時間;一時的印象、感想,很可能後來證明是錯誤的。


 
Shaunna (X)
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chimney-jackdaw Mar 4, 2007

Xiaoping Fu wrote:

姚兄过奖了!我在英文文法方面的功夫,远不及在此的许多朋友。我比较赞同你的“因果说”,但苦于找不到令人信服的文法的解释。Shaunna 的解释有点道理,可她自己又说文法上不太立得住。我也不敢插嘴了。:-) 从感觉上讲,我也觉得“父亲”所害怕的应该是后半句的“too remote”,害怕驾驭不了她。


我那裏說文法上立不住不是說我自己的理解,Fu大哥看岔了。 我並不亂批評自己的。

囬想我最初也有點感覺是不是母親的natural對frightened父親是個過強的刺激,令他自憐。不過很快被自己否定了(看下文看的)。

如今這么多版本,各個都似有道理,估計這一節我是沒法想定了。


另外,想起來chimney-jackdaw Julia曾問過的(是嗎?還是我記錯?),還沒見人討論。這個到底是一種鳥呢還是築巢在煙囪裡的那鳥?我譯時理解作了一種鳥(穴乌鸟),看到別人的繙譯時忽然覺得自己失譯了。好象還有一位譯做了掉進煙囪裡的寒鴉,當時覺得也很形象。現在看覺得可能不是。
目前這裏的幾篇,Wenjer和我當了一種鳥譯了,julia 作煙囪上筑巢的寒鸦譯了,Shaun譯作”烟囱寒鸦“,看不出是哪種(我怎么沒想到這樣處理呢?)。

有人有興趣說說嗎?

[Edited at 2007-03-04 17:07]


 
wherestip
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Great discussion Mar 4, 2007

I think I'll mainly speak in English this time, so Wenjer doesn't mistake my commentary as a suggested translation as he seems to have previously done Plus for me it is indeed less time-consuming to type in English than Chinese.

Xiaoping's analysis is very good, actually it's not all that different than what I was suggesting Although I didn't give a
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I think I'll mainly speak in English this time, so Wenjer doesn't mistake my commentary as a suggested translation as he seems to have previously done Plus for me it is indeed less time-consuming to type in English than Chinese.

Xiaoping's analysis is very good, actually it's not all that different than what I was suggesting Although I didn't give a translation, what I was suggesting was his father 怕惹事、胆小怕事. 说难听一点其实就是懦弱, 说好听一点就是谨小慎微.

How the translator on 新浪网 treated "frightened" is also similar to Xiaoping's interpretation. What I mean by this is they both saw this adjective as a put-down by the author towards his father. Xiaoping suggested 怯懦 while the guy on the net used the term 虚荣.

Furthermore, in the online translation, the mother's "太纯真,丝毫不矫揉造作" was too much for the father to handle. Notice here 丝毫不矫揉造作 is exactly what I was talking about, i.e., unpretentious, although I didn't do a very good job communicating this in Chinese. I actually first used the words "假惺惺、虚伪寒暄", but later on edited it to "客套、讲门面" after thinking it over, reason being I didn't want to leave the impression that I had a potty mouth, or was being disrespectful in this forum

I actually still think the usage of "frightened" is quite nebulous and is open to interpretation, but I also agree with Xiaoping it is indeed in a sense a disparaging remark that intentionally slights his father.



[Edited at 2007-03-04 18:04]
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Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Wenjer Leuschel (X)  Identity Verified
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Small talks Mar 4, 2007

wherestip wrote:
Xiaoping's analysis is very good, actually it's not all that different than mine. Although I didn't give a translation, what I was suggesting was his father 怕惹事、胆小怕事. 说难听一点其实就是懦弱, 说好听一点就是谨小慎微.


這樣的人在台灣叫做 "不沾鍋",奇怪的是有人就是喜歡不沾鍋。

wherestip wrote:
How the translator on 新浪网 treated "frightened" is also similar to Xiaoping's approach. What I mean by this is they both saw this adjective as a put-down by the author towards his father. Xiaoping suggested 怯懦 while the guy on the net used the term 虚荣.


是的,就 approach of interpretation 來說,新浪網翻譯成 "虚荣" 完全是貶意,"怯懦" 也是貶意,但 "谨小慎微" 或 "战战兢兢" 卻褒貶模糊。若要表現作者使用 frightened 留下的模糊空間,倒不妨用 "战战兢兢"。

wherestip wrote:
Furthermore, in the online translation, the mother's "太纯真,丝毫不矫揉造作" was too much for the father to handle. Notice here 丝毫不矫揉造作 is exactly what I was suggesting, i.e., unpretentious, although I did it pretty clumsily in Chinese. I actually first used the words "假惺惺、虚伪寒暄" to communicate this meaning in my previous commentary, but thought the better of it and edited it to "客套、讲门面" later on. Reason being I didn't want to leave the impression that I had a potty mouth, or was being disrespectful in this forum


我曾經說過,有的人使用語言很自然,表達的東西清清楚楚,有的人使用語言令人起雞皮疙瘩。語言除了表達思想之外,當然也表達感情;思想正確不正確是另一回事,感情真實不真實那在語言使用上可是非常重要。無論表達的是 "喜怒哀惧爱恶欲",只要是 "率真、誠實" 的,聽起來自自然然、清清楚楚;反之,給人們的感覺是 "矯揉造作、假惺惺"。這也就是我說過 "在一個語言裡說不出客氣話的人,在另一個語言裡也同樣說不出客氣話" 的原因:假的不會是真的,表象的真真假假在人的內裡卻很清楚可以分辨,如果人們仔細內省的話。

wherestip wrote:
I actually still think the usage of "frightened" is quite nebulous and is open to interpretation, but I also agree with Xiaoping it is indeed in a sense a disparaging remark that intentionally slights his father.


這一點我同意,那個男人確實是個 "嚇壞了的男人",驚慌逃避命運,但還是無能徹底逃避,命運讓他死得不明所以。

wherestip wrote:
I think I'll mainly speak in English this time, so Wenjer doesn't mistake my commentary as a suggested translation as he seems to have previously done Plus for me it is indeed more time-consuming to type in Chinese than English.


老實說,我的英文絕對不如我的中文,甚至不如我的德文;因此,你如果使用中文,我誤解的可能性也許會少些。不過,人類的溝通是雙向的,雙方都是 transmitters and receivers,而雙方在這兩者的構造上很可能會有些差異,因此發送和接收時很難完全吻合。如果我寫英文,你的理解很可能跟我的原意有距離;同樣地,如果你寫中文,我的理解也很可能跟你的本意有差別。我個人認為,溝通的雙方如果發現在發送與接收之間有偏差產生,再次明白表示,誤解之處就能通過這樣的往來,逐漸澄清,以至於完全溝通。So, Steve, don't worry about writing in Chinese or in English. We will do our best to have a thorough communication.


 
wherestip
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Agree Mar 4, 2007

Wenjer Leuschel wrote:

wherestip wrote:
Xiaoping's analysis is very good, actually it's not all that different than mine. Although I didn't give a translation, what I was suggesting was his father 怕惹事、胆小怕事. 说难听一点其实就是懦弱, 说好听一点就是谨小慎微.


這樣的人在台灣叫做 "不沾鍋",奇怪的是有人就是喜歡不沾鍋。



Exactly. 不惹事生非, 多一事不如少一事. Mind one's own business and don't get involved in others' affairs. To some extent that's also what I read into the use of "frightened".

Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
wherestip wrote:
How the translator on 新浪网 treated "frightened" is also similar to Xiaoping's approach. What I mean by this is they both saw this adjective as a put-down by the author towards his father. Xiaoping suggested 怯懦 while the guy on the net used the term 虚荣.


是的,就 approach of interpretation 來說,新浪網翻譯成 "虚荣" 完全是貶意,"怯懦" 也是貶意,但 "谨小慎微" 或 "战战兢兢" 卻褒貶模糊。若要表現作者使用 frightened 留下的模糊空間,倒不妨用 "战战兢兢"。



I agree with you on this approach too... Since the original was nebulous, also try to be non-committal in the translation.

Well, I'd better stop talking lest you guys think I talk out of both sides of my mouth, meaning sitting on the fence and agreeing with everyone, even those with opposing views, 所谓脚踩两只船

Wenjer Leuschel wrote:
wherestip wrote:
I think I'll mainly speak in English this time, so Wenjer doesn't mistake my commentary as a suggested translation as he seems to have previously done Plus for me it is indeed more time-consuming to type in Chinese than English.


老實說,我的英文絕對不如我的中文,甚至不如我的德文;因此,你如果使用中文,我誤解的可能性也許會少些。不過,人類的溝通是雙向的,雙方都是 transmitters and receivers,而雙方在這兩者的構造上很可能會有些差異,因此發送和接收時很難完全吻合。如果我寫英文,你的理解很可能跟我的原意有距離;同樣地,如果你寫中文,我的理解也很可能跟你的本意有差別。我個人認為,溝通的雙方如果發現在發送與接收之間有偏差產生,再次明白表示,誤解之處就能通過這樣的往來,逐漸澄清,以至於完全溝通。So, Steve, don't worry about writing in Chinese or in English. We will do our best to have a thorough communication.


Wenjer, I was half joking about this






[Edited at 2007-03-05 13:29]


 
Wenjer Leuschel (X)
Wenjer Leuschel (X)  Identity Verified
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I catch your point. Mar 4, 2007

wherestip wrote:

Wenjer, I was half joking about this


Well, don't you ever become a Mr. Teflon!


 
Xiaoping Fu
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寒鸦的比喻 Mar 4, 2007

Shaunna wrote:
我那裏說文法上立不住不是說我自己的理解,Fu大哥看岔了。 我並不亂批評自己的。


对不起,是我看错了!;-)


另外,想起來chimney-jackdaw Julia曾問過的(是嗎?還是我記錯?),還沒見人討論。這個到底是一種鳥呢還是築巢在煙囪裡的那鳥?我譯時理解作了一種鳥(穴乌鸟),看到別人的繙譯時忽然覺得自己失譯了。好象還有一位譯做了掉進煙囪裡的寒鴉,當時覺得也很形象。現在看覺得可能不是。
目前這裏的幾篇,Wenjer和我當了一種鳥譯了,julia 作煙囪上筑巢的寒鸦譯了,Shaun譯作”烟囱寒鸦“,看不出是哪種(我怎么沒想到這樣處理呢?)。

有人有興趣說說嗎?

[Edited at 2007-03-04 17:07]


我比较赞同 julia 的理解。chimney-jackdaw 应该是在人家烟囱里筑巢的寒鸦,呱呱噪噪的,令人厌烦。但我倾向选择Shaun 的处理。因为后面的描述都是建立在寒鸦这个比喻上面,见到阳光会兴高采烈,遇到危险就哇哇乱叫,等等。“筑巢”这个语词也有出现。连起来读者完全能了解。所以,chimney-jackdaw 直接译为“烟囱寒鸦”就够了,也不会与后面的“筑巢”重复。


 
Xiaoping Fu
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建议 Mar 4, 2007

Julia:

这个讨论Business题目是你开创的,后来你又如此大方地贴出自己的参赛译文,供大家批评,由此引出了这么精彩热烈的讨论。我相信大家都获益良多。非常感谢你!这两个讨论题目展开的都非常好。特别是翻译的讨论,我觉得是论坛有史以来最棒的讨论之一。但是两个题目放在一起,可能会互相冲淡了主体。尤其是隐藏其中的翻译讨论,很容易被人们错过。所�
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Julia:

这个讨论Business题目是你开创的,后来你又如此大方地贴出自己的参赛译文,供大家批评,由此引出了这么精彩热烈的讨论。我相信大家都获益良多。非常感谢你!这两个讨论题目展开的都非常好。特别是翻译的讨论,我觉得是论坛有史以来最棒的讨论之一。但是两个题目放在一起,可能会互相冲淡了主体。尤其是隐藏其中的翻译讨论,很容易被人们错过。所以,我建议你和Kevin 商量一下,是否能以分割为两个题目。使精彩的翻译讨论突出出来,吸引更多的人参与。

Juliazou wrote:

Shaunna wrote:

wherestip wrote:

I wanted to congratulate the winner this morning after reading Shaun's post, but didn't know who to congratulate

Your translation is indeed very good.



I am really thrilled now.

Shaunna的文章我仔细读了,的确很不错!这个我看着长大的丫头(她来proz之后我一直关注着她 )越来越厉害了!
那段时间我也很闲,所以也参加了比赛。提高bidding的念头肯定是有的,另外也希望通过比赛,主要是通过大家的评论得到提高。结果呢,主办方采取隐秘投票的方式,不让人做任何评论,这样对于名落孙山者起不到任何帮助作用啊。我参赛的目的一个也没达到呀! 所以我愿意把我的拙作贴出来,希望有空、有兴趣并且愿意帮助我的同仁看一看,特别希望无情地指出我的错误,如果有表扬的话我也不反对。

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Shaunna (X)
Shaunna (X)  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:47
English to Chinese
+ ...
Good idea! Mar 4, 2007

Xiaoping Fu wrote:

Julia:

这个讨论Business题目是你开创的,后来你又如此大方地贴出自己的参赛译文,供大家批评,由此引出了这么精彩热烈的讨论。我相信大家都获益良多。非常感谢你!这两个讨论题目展开的都非常好。特别是翻译的讨论,我觉得是论坛有史以来最棒的讨论之一。但是两个题目放在一起,可能会互相冲淡了主体。尤其是隐藏其中的翻译讨论,很容易被人们错过。所以,我建议你和Kevin 商量一下,是否能以分割为两个题目。使精彩的翻译讨论突出出来,吸引更多的人参与。




支持。


 
Julia Zou
Julia Zou  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 19:47
Member (2006)
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
我已经给Kevin写了信 Mar 4, 2007

Shaunna wrote:

Xiaoping Fu wrote:

Julia:

这个讨论Business题目是你开创的,后来你又如此大方地贴出自己的参赛译文,供大家批评,由此引出了这么精彩热烈的讨论。我相信大家都获益良多。非常感谢你!这两个讨论题目展开的都非常好。特别是翻译的讨论,我觉得是论坛有史以来最棒的讨论之一。但是两个题目放在一起,可能会互相冲淡了主体。尤其是隐藏其中的翻译讨论,很容易被人们错过。所以,我建议你和Kevin 商量一下,是否能以分割为两个题目。使精彩的翻译讨论突出出来,吸引更多的人参与。




支持。


我很高兴大家都喜欢这次讨论,我看了大家的发言,已经收益颇多。比赛期间,我就觉得主办方的方法不好,大家(不管是参赛者还是投票者)都不能积极参与其中。实际情况是,参赛的默默地翻译文章,投票者只能默默地投票。如果最后就知道一个结果,某某获胜。那么这样的比赛一点意义也没有。我原来想像的投票方式应该是评论+投票。结果没有评论这个环节。这样,我在翻译这篇文章时存在的疑问根本就没办法跟别人讨论。疑问永远都会是疑问。就像我在有一次发言中说的,即使没有收获奖品,也要收获一点进步呀。
我已经给kevin写了信,等着他处理这件事。


 
Shaunna (X)
Shaunna (X)  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:47
English to Chinese
+ ...
Juliazou wrote: Mar 6, 2007

wrong operation-- delete!

[Edited at 2007-03-06 03:46]


 
Shaunna (X)
Shaunna (X)  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:47
English to Chinese
+ ...
Shaunna wrote: Mar 6, 2007

wrong operation-- delete!

[Edited at 2007-03-06 03:53]


 
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