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Off topic: 校对者将译文乱改一通,胸闷。(Do you know how to be a QUALIFIED Proofreader/Editor?)
Thread poster: Jing Nie

wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
Chinese to English
+ ...
A flexible language Nov 11, 2009

Linda Yang wrote:

先坦白,本人见识不多。到目前为止还没见过“Failed to bring my wallet ”,难道是因为客观原因(老婆看管着钱包不让带出来?)才 fail 吗?

英文里是不是更习惯这样说呢?
I did not bring my wallet with me.
I forgot to bring my wallet with me.
I forgot my wallet。

似乎“一刀切”的方式已经不适合当今的社会发展。


Linda,

Yes, those are the ways how one would typically express that. But it doesn't mean they are the only ways. So please be aware that searching on the web is not the 100% surefire method to verify that a usage is correct.

http://collinsinpa.blogspot.com/2008/10/walt-disney-world.html



We did have a lot of drama getting to Florida however. After getting a late start waiting for a prescription for John that we abandoned, I realized an hour into our drive that I had failed to bring my wallet, with my driver's license, and every other form of ID I own. I panicked a bit because we still had two more hours to drive to BWI, and no way to go back to State College and get it, and make our flight. And yes, I was driving. We decided that I would just keep going, get them on the plane, drive back to State College, get the ID, back to Baltimore, pay the $100 re-booking fee, and leave in the morning--not a fun prospect. The agents at Delta were also working on the same plan, when a few people told us that I really didn't need my ID to fly, I just had to submit to extra screening. John went to TSA to make sure, and they let us go through without much hassle at all. So, we did all get on the plane, but with delays, missing luggage, and rental car issues, we didn't get to Carla's until 1 or so in the morning. We were glad to sleep in the next day. We went swimming (I forgot the camera), and went on a driving tour of International Drive in Orlando, and also went over to the temple to check it out. Eowyn loved the palm trees and orange trees on the grounds. And, she had a great time bonding with Sammie.



 

Linda Yang  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
实践是检验真理的唯一标准 Nov 11, 2009

[quote]wherestip wrote:

Linda,

Yes, those are the ways how one would typically express that. But it doesn't mean they are the only ways. So please be aware that searching on the web is not the 100% surefire method to verify that a usage is correct.

http://collinsinpa.blogspot.com/2008/10/walt-disney-world.html


如楼主所言,我们一直讨论的译法正是typical expression, 但是谁也没有强调那是“only way”。
任何时候,网络搜索都仅仅作为参考。

实践出真知。
实践是检验真理的唯一标准。


 

ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
具体问题具体分析 Nov 11, 2009

Linda Yang wrote:

对于不同的文件类型以及客户要求,当然是要有不同的翻译结果(一句话百样说)。正如“打电话”和“致电”,在一般的文件中用“打电话”就ok,可是在正式的商务文件中,“打电话”就显得家常了些。

不可否认,译文的质量有多种因素制约。质量差不完全是译员心态的作用(看懂为目的),究其原因除了译员本身的翻译水平占主要之外,剩下的就是责任心在主导。似乎之前同行们已经就这一话题有过探讨。

而谈及科技文体的翻译,个人认为最好要了解最终使用文件的客户。像当初在焊接公司,要使用说明书的人并非都是工程师,因此要用他们能理解的语言。而并非是硬要套搬正规的词法和句法。
当然,在没有了解任何应用背景的前提下,我们做翻译时还是要按正常的模式走。

你的意见原则上都对。但具体到前面争论的问题,其焦点在于 “打开文档失败” 是否是一种好的表达。不少同仁认为不是,甚至还有人认为不像中国话,而且认为 “无法打开文档”、“无法打开文件”或“无法开启文件”都比 “打开文档失败” 为好。可是也有人认为,这得去问中国大陆的IT技术人员,问他们把 “Failed to open document.” 翻译成 “打开文档失败。” 算不算一种 “蹩脚表达” 或 “蹩脚” 翻译。实际上,像 “打开文档失败” 这种话,它的 intended readers 主要是一般的电脑使用者。所以,并非只有IT技术人员才有资格来判断。而且,未必大多数IT技术人员都会认可这种表达。

至于译文质量,我们在海外所面临的往往是一套严格的管理程序,例如 ISO 9001 标准体系。稍有不慎,就会被挑出毛病。有些 Editors 出于竞争的目的或限于语言水平和专业水平,往往没有毛病也会挑出些毛病来。而那些翻译社的 PM 往往不懂中文和专业,无法判断谁对谁错。这就是为什么有的翻译会感到“胸闷”的原因之一。除了翻译社那一关以外,这里的最终用户,往往还会自行找人再次审核译文。例如,他们会让自己的华裔雇员去审核译文,其中不乏来自中国大陆和港澳台的硕士、博士。所以,无论是翻译还是翻译社,都别想马虎从事。


[Edited at 2009-11-12 00:35 GMT]


 

ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
灵活应用 Nov 11, 2009

wherestip wrote:

Yes, those are the ways how one would typically express that. But it doesn't mean they are the only ways.


前面提到,Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English 关于 fail 的第二种解释是 to not do what is expected, needed, or wanted。

所以,"Failed to bring my wallet” 就属于 did not do what is needed。 类似的例子还有:The driver has failed to produce (show) his driver license.

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/fail_1
fail

2 NOT DO SOMETHING [intransitive] to not do what is expected, needed, or wanted
fail to do something
The letter failed to arrive.
Firms that fail to take advantage of the new technology will go out of business.
The government are failing in their duty to protect people.



[Edited at 2009-11-11 19:05 GMT]


 

wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
Chinese to English
+ ...
Huh? Nov 11, 2009

Linda Yang wrote:


实践出真知。
实践是检验真理的唯一标准。



Linda,

So how much practical knowledge do you profess to have without even knowing if a usage is right or wrong, questioning an elemental sentence such as "I failed to bring my wallet"?



Linda Yang wrote:

如楼主所言,我们一直讨论的译法正是typical expression, 但是谁也没有强调那是“only way”。
任何时候,网络搜索都仅仅作为参考。


And what is the whole point of you arguing with the example I used of "failing to bring one's wallet" anyway If you want to argue a certain point and turn out to be wrong, I'd just as soon you own up to your mistake and move on to something else instead of being argumentative. Quit looking for lame excuses like what the initial poster intended to discuss in this thread. It's for him to say.

If you insist on saying certain Chinese phrases a certain way, go right ahead. Certainly no one is going to stop you.

And by the way, sarcasm is not going to get you anywhere either. It just unabashedly goes to show how much English you really understand, not to mention manners.



Linda Yang wrote:

难道是因为客观原因(老婆看管着钱包不让带出来?)才 fail 吗?





[Edited at 2009-11-12 16:49 GMT]


 

wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
Chinese to English
+ ...
"失败" Nov 11, 2009

ysun wrote:

wherestip wrote:

Yes, those are the ways how one would typically express that. But it doesn't mean they are the only ways.


前面提到,Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English 关于 fail 的第二种解释是 to not do what is expected, needed, or wanted。

所以,"Failed to bring my wallet” 就属于 did not do what is needed。 类似的例子还有:The driver has failed to produce (show) his driver license.

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/fail_1
fail

2 NOT DO SOMETHING [intransitive] to not do what is expected, needed, or wanted
fail to do something
The letter failed to arrive.
Firms that fail to take advantage of the new technology will go out of business.
The government are failing in their duty to protect people.




Yueyin,

Exactly. To fail to do something is a commonly used expression. For example ...


She failed to yeild at the intersection.

He failed to submit the necessary documentation.

He failed to introduce himself properly.

She failed to graduate.

The story line failed to make sense.

The plane failed to land on time.

Similarly, "the file failed to open", or "failed to open file" refers to the situation where a text file or an executable file failed to open as it was supposed to; there's nothing special in the usage of the phrase "to fail to" in this instance compared to the sentences above.

As a matter of fact, none of any of these sentences really calls for the Chinese term "失败".



[Edited at 2009-11-12 02:25 GMT]


 

ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
说明 Nov 11, 2009

Linda Yang wrote:

ysun wrote:

另外,同一英语单词在不同上下文中就会有不同的含义和译法。例如 fail 这个单词,Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English 就指出了至少12种用法。所以,不能不顾上下文而一律译成“失败”。

至于 "failed to open document",在我看来它与 "failed to open the door" 这种日常用语是一码事。总不能把 "failed to open the door" 译成“打开房门失败”吧?


[Edited at 2009-11-11 07:13 GMT]


既然Longman 就给出了至少12种 fail 的用法,而且“不能不顾上下文而一律译成“失败””,那么我们认可"failed to open document"等同于“打开文件失败”的同时,为什么非要把“"failed to open the door" 译成“打开房门失败”呢?

看来你误解了我的意思。没有人非要把“"failed to open the door" 译成“打开房门失败”。但却有人坚持认为把 "failed to open document" 译为“打开文件失败”也不坏。我举出此例正是为了说明把 "failed to open document" 译为“打开文件失败”就如同把“"failed to open the door" 译成“打开房门失败”一样糟糕。


 

ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
Agree Nov 11, 2009

wherestip wrote:

None of these really call for the Chinese term "失败".

正因为某些人一看到 fail 就会联想到“失败”,才会对 "failed to successfully …” 这样的句型感到不可理解。


 

ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
不错 Nov 11, 2009

Linda Yang wrote:

实践出真知。
实践是检验真理的唯一标准。

学英语也是如此。从生活中学比从教科书、词典、语法书学更为重要、更为有效。


 

Linda Yang  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
没有最好 只有更好 Nov 12, 2009

ysun wrote:

至于译文质量,我们在海外所面临的往往是一套严格的管理程序,例如 ISO 9001 标准体系。稍有不慎,就会被挑出毛病。有些 Editors 出于竞争的目的或限于语言水平和专业水平,往往没有毛病也会挑出些毛病来。而那些翻译社的 PM 往往不懂中文和专业,无法判断谁对谁错。这就是为什么有的翻译会感到“胸闷”的原因之一。除了翻译社那一关以外,这里的最终用户,往往还会自行找人再次审核译文。例如,他们会让自己的华裔雇员去审核译文,其中不乏来自中国大陆和港澳台的硕士、博士。所以,无论是翻译还是翻译社,都别想马虎从事。

[Edited at 2009-11-11 23:05 GMT]


深有体会。
不过依个人拙见,单就一种语言而讲,并非本土人士就一定运用娴熟。像大山的中文,从某种程度上来讲可能会比一些所谓的大师要顺畅得多。这也就是前文Yueyin所说的,有的时候不是英语没念懂,是中文没理顺。

就个人的观点而言,马虎是每个人不可避免的一个缺点,只是有的人细心些可以将其尽量缩小。
金无足赤,人无完人。不仅仅限于翻译行业,每个行业中的每个人都应该尽力尽力做到更好-尽管我们做不到最好。


 

Linda Yang  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
感谢Yueyin的理解 Nov 12, 2009

ysun wrote:

看来你误解了我的意思。没有人非要把“"failed to open the door" 译成“打开房门失败”。但却有人坚持认为把 "failed to open document" 译为“打开文件失败”也不坏。我举出此例正是为了说明把 "failed to open document" 译为“打开文件失败”就如同把“"failed to open the door" 译成“打开房门失败”一样糟糕。


语言真的很深奥。而且很多时候不同的人对同一句话会有不同的理解。这就是我们平常所说的误解。

我始终和我的合作伙伴说,如果我说的话哪里感觉不顺或听起来不舒服,请直接指出来,以避免不必要的误解。

磨合......


 

ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
法乎其上,至少能得乎其中 Nov 12, 2009

Linda Yang wrote:

就个人的观点而言,马虎是每个人不可避免的一个缺点,只是有的人细心些可以将其尽量缩小。
金无足赤,人无完人。不仅仅限于翻译行业,每个行业中的每个人都应该尽力尽力做到更好-尽管我们做不到最好。

不错。十全十美的译文是根本不存在的。但是,只要我们精益求精,翻译过程中把速度放慢些,多斟酌斟酌,翻完之后自己再好好看看、好好改改,至少改到自己能够满意,那么交稿之后问题就不会太大。如果遇到高手指出了自己译文中的不足,那正是学习提高的好机会。即使遇到那些令人“胸闷”、胡乱修改的审稿者那也不怕。万一双方争得不可开交,还可要求客户找第三方评判。唯有如此,才能建立起长期稳定的客户基础,否则就难免像狗熊掰棒子似的,接一个客户就丢一个。

有时,最终客户经过自己的评估,认定某些翻译的译文质量较高,他们就会指定由那些翻译来做新的项目,即使翻译社不很愿意(例如出于价格原因),他们也非得服从不可。


 

Linda Yang  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
百家争鸣 百花齐放 Nov 12, 2009

[quote]wherestip wrote:

Linda,

So how much practical knowledge do you profess to have without even knowing if a usage is right or wrong, questioning an elemental sentence such as "I failed to bring my wallet"?

And what is the whole point of you arguing with the example I used of "failing to bring one's wallet" anyway If you want to argue a certain point and turn out to be wrong, I suggest you accept your mistake and move on to something else instead of being argumentative. Quit looking for lame excuses like what the initial poster intended to discuss in this thread. It's for him to say.

If you insist on saying certain Chinese phrases a certain way, go right ahead. Certainly no one is going to stop you.

And by the way, sarcasm is not going to get you anywhere. It just unabashedly goes to show how much English you really understand, not to mention manners.

[quote]

不知道elemental sentence 可耻吗?我从来就没有想过要把自己的“小”藏起来。
知之为知之,不知为不知,是知也。即使我从现在开始学习ABC又有何妨呢?

邓亚萍从退役之后才开始求学,最后成功获得博士学位。难道她当初把自己的“不知”藏起来就能够获得更多的知识吗?

Dear wherestip, please kindly let know what you want to express with such phrase as "whole point", is it idomatic English? If yes, I shoud keep it in mind. However, to be frankly with you, I never know how to make excuses for any errors or mistakes.

中国本土向来提倡“百家争鸣,百花齐放”,还真不知道是不是全世界都提倡呢?
而且,从就一个话题争论转移到对一个人进行评价,这该不是proz上同行所提倡的“以事论事”吧?

既然如此,我也顺带在这里郑重声明一下:截至目前,本人的字典里尚未存入"sarcasm"一词,因此不知该如何使用。烦请熟悉使用的大师赐教。


 

wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:13
Chinese to English
+ ...
对不起 Nov 12, 2009

Linda Yang wrote:


不知道elemental sentence 可耻吗?我从来就没有想过要把自己的“小”藏起来。
知之为知之,不知为不知,是知也。即使我从现在开始学习ABC又有何妨呢?

邓亚萍从退役之后才开始求学,最后成功获得博士学位。难道她当初把自己的“不知”藏起来就能够获得更多的知识吗?

Dear wherestip, please kindly let know what you want to express with such phrase as "whole point", is it idomatic English? If yes, I shoud keep it in mind. However, to be frankly with you, I never know how to make excuses for any errors or mistakes.

中国本土向来提倡“百家争鸣,百花齐放”,还真不知道是不是全世界都提倡呢?
而且,从就一个话题争论转移到对一个人进行评价,这该不是proz上同行所提倡的“以事论事”吧?

既然如此,我也顺带在这里郑重声明一下:截至目前,本人的字典里尚未存入"sarcasm"一词,因此不知该如何使用。烦请熟悉使用的大师赐教。



Linda,

Sorry, I'd rather not respond to any of your posts in the future. I hope you understand. Thanks.



[Edited at 2009-11-12 03:03 GMT]


 

Linda Yang  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:13
English to Chinese
+ ...
不打不相识 Nov 12, 2009

wherestip wrote:

Linda Yang wrote:


不知道elemental sentence 可耻吗?我从来就没有想过要把自己的“小”藏起来。
知之为知之,不知为不知,是知也。即使我从现在开始学习ABC又有何妨呢?

邓亚萍从退役之后才开始求学,最后成功获得博士学位。难道她当初把自己的“不知”藏起来就能够获得更多的知识吗?

Dear wherestip, please kindly let know what you want to express with such phrase as "whole point", is it idomatic English? If yes, I shoud keep it in mind. However, to be frankly with you, I never know how to make excuses for any errors or mistakes.

中国本土向来提倡“百家争鸣,百花齐放”,还真不知道是不是全世界都提倡呢?
而且,从就一个话题争论转移到对一个人进行评价,这该不是proz上同行所提倡的“以事论事”吧?

既然如此,我也顺带在这里郑重声明一下:截至目前,本人的字典里尚未存入"sarcasm"一词,因此不知该如何使用。烦请熟悉使用的大师赐教。



Sorry, I don't have time to talk to people like you.





中国有句古话“不打不相识”。不过“酒逢知己千杯少,话不投机半句多”。

道不同不相为谋。






[Edited at 2009-11-12 09:20 GMT]


 
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