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Off topic: 校对者将译文乱改一通,胸闷。(Do you know how to be a QUALIFIED Proofreader/Editor?)
Thread poster: Jing Nie

Jing Nie
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Aug 9, 2007

今天晚上突然接到美国一家一直合作的翻译公司的电话,开始时我还没搞明白,客户还说点客套话,接着切入正题,直接问我上上周接的一个翻译是怎么回事,说编辑者对我有很负面的评价,修改的地方很多。由于改的极多,他们就认为我这次做的质量很成问题,就直接按他修改后的稿子给了客户。
对于我翻译的稿子,这家公司平常的做法都是修改稿先让我过目,看看改的正确不正确,正确的接受,不接受的说明原因的。这次没有这样做,充分证明了对我的不信任。

我当时很是纳闷儿,就和他说,东西发给我,我看一下再说。

收到改过的稿子,改的极多,但是改对的地方确实不多,有些地方简直是乱改一通,比如原文是internet ,把我的翻译从“因特网”改为“网络”之类的。还把我整句划掉,按他自己的说法再说一遍,理由是我的语法不通,简直是无事生非。从文件中的编辑信息看,也是一直改我稿子的人之一,这位仁兄似乎以前没这么大的工作“热情”呀。


由于这家翻译公司的PM都是美国人,没一个懂中文的,我尽量解释,并把我认为改的不对的部分再改回去,并加上批注。搞不清别人遇到这码事怎么办,我是直接告诉这个PM,他的修改问题多多,并且大多数是没事找事。估计PM自己也头大,看着神奇的东方文字,一个也不认识,就看着两个翻译打嘴仗。







[标题已经过网站人员或版主的修改 2007-08-09 19:25]


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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
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Let's discuss this annoying situation! Aug 9, 2007

NieJing wrote:

由于这家翻译公司的PM都是美国人,没一个懂中文的,我尽量解释,并把我认为改的不对的部分再改回去,并加上批注。搞不清别人遇到这码事怎么办,我是直接告诉这个PM,他的修改问题多多,并且大多数是没事找事。估计PM自己也头大,看着神奇的东方文字,一个也不认识,就看着两个翻译打嘴仗。


Thank you, NieJing, for posting this topic. I think we should discuss it in detail and make it clear the role, job responsibility and qualification of a proofreader or editor. The frustration you experienced also happened to me. This matter can get even worse when the PM is a non-Chinese reader/speaker.

I would like to steer this discussion to focus on the following areas:

1. Role and qualification of a proofreader.

2. Role and qualification of an editor.

3. Methodology and guideline when QA a translation done by other translator(s)

4. The considerations a proofreader/editor MUST have in mind when correcting the current translation.

5. Suggestions for dispute resolutions.

Kevin


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Yongmei Liu  Identity Verified
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要是怕丢掉这个客户的话 Aug 9, 2007

我看可以要求客户找一个独立的校对者作仲裁。如果篇幅较长,可以限定此人花费的小时数(比如2小时)。你可以主动提出支付一半的费用。

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Hanyi Magnusson  Identity Verified
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Translation quality assessment Aug 9, 2007

Kevin Yang wrote:

NieJing wrote:

由于这家翻译公司的PM都是美国人,没一个懂中文的,我尽量解释,并把我认为改的不对的部分再改回去,并加上批注。搞不清别人遇到这码事怎么办,我是直接告诉这个PM,他的修改问题多多,并且大多数是没事找事。估计PM自己也头大,看着神奇的东方文字,一个也不认识,就看着两个翻译打嘴仗。


I would like to steer this discussion to focus on the following areas:

1. Role and qualification of a proofreader.

2. Role and qualification of an editor.

3. Methodology and guideline when QA a translation done by other translator(s)

4. The considerations a proofreader/editor MUST have in mind when correcting the current translation.

5. Suggestions for dispute resolutions.

Kevin


Interesting discussion, I can contribute what I have learnt from my translation studies at Imperial College regarding to some basics on this issue, it is a bit on the theoretical side but I do find it is very applicable in reality:

Basically it is a question of "What is a good translation?", a process of assessment could involve:

Error analysis:
-definition of the error; different criteria of error,
-error types,
-scale fo gravity (how serious);

Retrospective assessment (comparing with the source text):
-measure equivalence with different types;

Prospective assessment (measuring the effect and function of the target text, whether it is intended or not);

Introspective assessment (Translator's strategy and tactics--so called Think Alound Protocols);

Lateral assessment (comparing with non-translated parallel target language texts to check it against expectancy norms);

Finally, there are a few international standards such as DIN 2345 and J2450 one can refer to.

There are a lot of researches on this topic, I particularly liked Juan Sager's word: 'There are no absolute standards of translation quality, but only more or less appropriate translations for the purpose of which they are intended.'

I personally think Newmark's approach is quite straight forward for editor or proofreader:
1. A brief analysis of the source text (ST) to identify its intentional and function aspects (like the purpose of the text/author, charactherization of the readership, quality of language, etc.)

2. Ananlysis of the translator's purpose (his interpretation of the text, translation method and the likely readership of the target text(TT)). It is very important to make effort to see things from translator's point of view, one should distinguish between incompetence and a translation method one do not approve of.

3. Comparison of the ST and TT. Be selective but representative: title, structure, shifts, metaphors, cultural words, proper names, translationese, 'untranslatable' words, sound effect, etc. This should be a discussion of translation problems, not a quick recipes for 'correct' or better translations.

4. Evaluation of the translation from a). in the translator's terms, b) in the critic's terms (referential and pragmatic accuracy subject to purpose). Then independently assess the TT.

5. Where appropriate, an assessment of the potential importance of the TT in its culture.

Hope this is a useful start.


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ysun  Identity Verified
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建议 Aug 9, 2007

你能否列出几个典型的例句来让大家看看?大家可用英语发表评论,然后你可让那位PM来看,如何?

NieJing wrote:

收到改过的稿子,改的极多,但是改对的地方确实不多,有些地方简直是乱改一通,比如原文是internet ,把我的翻译从“因特网”改为“网络”之类的。还把我整句划掉,按他自己的说法再说一遍,理由是我的语法不通,简直是无事生非。


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pkchan  Identity Verified
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讓大家評評理 Aug 9, 2007

『原文是internet ,把我的翻译从“因特网”改为“网络”』若然如此,胸悶的就不只是你一位了。不過,我是相信會有這種人的。『改对的地方确实不多』,是不多,但也有,可否給我們一些數字,如改動多少處,認為是改對的有多少處,改錯的有多少處,再拿那些改錯的,給大家看看,這會對社區有助。

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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
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The goal of this discussion is to make each QA process to be professional and resultful. Aug 9, 2007

Hanyi Magnusson wrote:

Interesting discussion, I can contribute what I have learnt from my translation studies at Imperial College regarding to some basics on this issue, it is a bit on the theoretical side but I do find it is very applicable in reality:


Thank you, Hanyi and all, for sharing your information and participation in this discussion. Please stick around and help to carry this discussion to be fruitful. We will need more well-trained translators like you.

Before we jump into any assumptions and conclusions, we should be able to define the roles and responsibilities of a proofreader and/or an editor. Outline the pitfalls that the people in such roles can fall into, and suggestions to prevent them from happening.

The goal of this discussion is to make each QA process to be professional and resultful. If we can be successful, we can generate a summary report which can be referred to any PM to read once such editor vs. translator dispute takes place.

Kevin

[修改时间: 2007-08-09 23:32]


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Jing Nie
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TOPIC STARTER
仔细看了修订,举几个例子供大家看一看 Aug 10, 2007

谢谢Yuexin Sun,对此的评论就不必了,也浪费大家的时间,我深信改我稿子的这位仁兄也可以看到我的帖子,让他知道就行了。客户还是希望与我合作的,否则不会打电话给我和我说这事,只是希望我以后注意质量。

1.最无聊的修订。
把我全文中多达100多个的所有的半角的英文括号都删除,然后自己再加上半角的英文括号。就是说改了等于没改。
我开始还以为是自己搞错了,半角的括号写为全角的了,因为两种括号的样子是不一样,仔细一看,是用的字体不同,我用的是times new roman字体,他用的是宋体。

2.画蛇添足型:
The World Health Organization’s International Nonproprietary Names Expert Group works to develop international nonproprietary names for pharmaceutical medicinal substances for acceptance worldwide.
翻译:世界卫生组织的国际非专利药名专家组制定了为全世界接受的药品成分的国际非专利药名。
他看了估计是感到不过瘾,就在世界卫生组织后面加上(WHO)


3.似是而非型
Some medicines, although marketed under the same or similar-sounding brand names may contain different active ingredients in different countries.
我的翻译中本来把brand names翻译为商品名,被改正为品牌名,怎么看怎么怪.

the names of proprietary products are distinguished by initial capital letters.
翻译:专利药名可以通过首字母大写辨认。
修正为:专利药名可以通过首大写字母辨认。
这个修正说明他不习惯我的说法.

Alert patients to the problem of LASA drug names when obtaining medicines via the Internet.
翻译:警告患者如果通过互联网买药,则应注意LASA药名的问题。
修正为:警告患者如果通过网络买药,则应注意LASA药名的问题。

Standardize the approaches to patient identification among different facilities within a health-care system.
翻译为:在同一个医疗系统中的不同医疗机构中使患者识别的方法统一。
改为:在同一个医疗系统的不同医疗机构中统一患者的识别方法。
这句话改的还不错,似乎比我原来的说法更易读一些.

Of the 25 000 to 30 000 preventable adverse events that led to permanent disability in Australia, 11% were due to communication issues, in contrast to 6% due to inadequate skill levels of practitioners (3).
翻译:在澳大利亚,25000至30000起导致终身残疾的本可避免的不良事件中,11%是由于沟通问题导致,与之相比仅6%是由于医务人员缺乏足够技能水平导致(3)。
改为:在澳大利亚,25000至30000起导致终身残疾的本可避免的不良事件中,11%是由于沟通问题导致,相对的,仅6%是由于医务人员缺乏足够技能水平导致(3)。
难道改为相对的?就比原来更通?


Make patients aware of their prescribed medications, doses, and required time between medications.
翻译:使患者知道给自己所开的药、剂量、以及用药的间隔时间。
改正为:使患者知道医生开自己的药、剂量、以及用药的间隔时间。
是不是有点怪?

当然,我不否认这位校对者在这个项目中很多改正还是正确的,从他的以往的工作可以看出,他的水平确实不比我差,但是负责任并不代表可以随心所欲的对别人的翻译痛下狠手,不该改的地方也改。他可以找出我这么多错误,我同样也可以从他的修订中找出更多的修订错误。






[修改时间: 2007-08-10 00:12]


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Shaun Yeo  Identity Verified
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就译文讨论译文,希望不会火上浇油…… Aug 10, 2007

细读了NieJing兄的帖子,感觉兄之不平不无道理。我这里想纯粹就译文讨论译文,与兄商榷,希望不至于火上浇油。
NieJing wrote:
2.画蛇添足型:
The World Health Organization’s International Nonproprietary Names Expert Group works to develop international nonproprietary names for pharmaceutical medicinal substances for acceptance worldwide.
翻译:世界卫生组织的国际非专利药名专家组制定了为全世界接受的药品成分的国际非专利药名。
他看了估计是感到不过瘾,就在世界卫生组织后面加上(WHO)

这里,我觉得应该改的是“制定了”,估计"to develop"应该是"is to develop"之略,因为用作point-form enumeration或标题,所以原文省略了动词,这在英语很常见。所以,可考虑改成“将制定。”

NieJing wrote:
Of the 25 000 to 30 000 preventable adverse events that led to permanent disability in Australia, 11% were due to communication issues, in contrast to 6% due to inadequate skill levels of practitioners (3).
翻译:在澳大利亚,25000至30000起导致终身残疾的本可避免的不良事件中,11%是由于沟通问题导致,与之相比仅6%是由于医务人员缺乏足够技能水平导致(3)。
改为:在澳大利亚,25000至30000起导致终身残疾的本可避免的不良事件中,11%是由于沟通问题导致,相对的,仅6%是由于医务人员缺乏足够技能水平导致(3)。
难道改为相对的?就比原来更通?

这里比较见仁见智。我觉得应该去掉“仅”字。原文并列两种数据,一为11%,一为6%,虽有高下相较之意,但并无强调后者为“仅”之意。何况6%的人为因素,也许并不成其小。另外,如果这是对外发表的文件,这“仅”之一字,对那6%的家属,可以造成痛上加痛。

我这帖子纯粹是为讨论文字而发,没有其他“深意”,如有得罪,还请原谅。


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Jianjun Zhang  Identity Verified
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Peter Newmark Aug 10, 2007

Hanyi,

Amongst all the translation theorists, Peter Newmark too is my favorite.

He exposes the problem of translation from a practical angle - as a procedure - so students can follow through quite comfortably. I also find Nona Baker a good writer in translation theory field.

Back to the thread, in everyday practice, I suggest using qualified in-house reviewers to avoid this problem. Due to limited space here, I won't elaborate on QA this time.

I often tell my students who are working as translators for domestic agencies that when they collaborate with someone as a translator/reviewer/proofreader, they should understand that they are working toward a same goal - working out the best possible translation for the end client.

The Master of Chinese Xiang Sheng (相声) Mr. Hou Baolin (侯宝林) once talked about the art of Peng Gen (捧哏) and Dou Gen (逗哏). He said the person who is 捧 and who is 逗 should be like two stalks of a vegetable. Otherwise, nobody will laugh no matter how hard you work to tickle them pink.

I believe the same is true for translator/reviewer relationship. The problem Niejing is facing is an old one. The reviewer and the translator simply can't work together.

If I were Niejing, I would write to explain to the PM who knows nothing about the language concerned that the advice of a third independent reviewer were to be sought to solve the issue.

As a reviewer, if I found some translation is of a bad quality, I would write to notify the PM in advance and give my advice.

Best,
Jianjun


Basically it is a question of "What is a good translation?", a


[Edited at 2007-08-10 04:01]


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jyuan_us  Identity Verified
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這是一種職業衝撞 Aug 10, 2007

我也常常給別人改很多﹐但不是故意的﹐有時我改東西﹐要考慮讀者的文化水平﹐比如給美國的小學畢業老華僑看﹐ 太新鮮的東西﹐比如“打造平臺”之類的詞﹐有時就需要換成讀者更容易接受的老一點的詞﹐ 這時譯者通常就會憤怒。

我的東西也被人改﹐也經常發生改了跟沒改一樣的情況﹐比如把打電話改為致電﹐詢問改為垂詢﹐查看改為查閱等。如果我心情好沒憤怒﹐ 就接受他的改動﹐少生是非。有時忍無可忍會逐條反駮。 前天就遇到一個故意打壓翻譯的審稿人﹐改得都是上邊的那種情況﹐全是雞蛋里挑骨頭。更有甚者﹐ 還跟PM說這個翻譯“非常低劣”。

正好趕上我忍無可忍的時候﹐就花了半小時逐條反駮﹐並指出﹕

1. 他故意夸大事實﹐通過改FORMAT儘量把TRACK CHANGE 搞的好像很多錯誤﹐其實通篇就改5個單詞﹐每個出現4-5次﹐所以給了你一種假象。

2. 這篇稿件是同一個客戶的已經批准的老文件稍加修改而已﹐他改動的東西都是早已批准並印刷的東西﹐ 而且是公司IN-HOUSE定的稿。

3. 著力指出原本正確被他改錯的地方。

結果﹕ PM來信﹐ 告訴我﹐你把他的改動統統REJECT﹐ 用你的原譯稿定稿吧。

謝謝理解﹗我給PM EMAIL去好大一個KISS。

這方法偶爾可用﹐ 有時就不行﹐要看PM和公司的情況而定。


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Jianjun Zhang  Identity Verified
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Green horn Aug 10, 2007

这样的审稿人应该被立即解雇,他们不过是翻译公司新雇的二把刀而已,是不是翻译都不好说。来了就想表现一下,把别人挤走,其实如果译文没问题,他们往往会失算,反而丢了工作。

另外,还有一种所谓的“翻译公司”,审稿人就是个虚张声势、其实自己都极少有什么项目的翻译,遇到解决不了的问题时,先哀求你为她做,一般都是超难的稿件,没前后文那种。遇到问题就贬你说你不值多少钱,伺机拖欠付款或根本拒绝付款。对这样的人,顶好敬而远之。

jyuan_us wrote:
1. 他故意夸大事實﹐通過改FORMAT儘量把TRACK CHANGE 搞的好像很多錯誤﹐其實通篇就改5個單詞﹐每個出現4-5次﹐所以給了你一種假象。

2. 這篇稿件是同一個客戶的已經批准的老文件稍加修改而已﹐他改動的東西都是早已批准並印刷的東西﹐ 而且是公司IN-HOUSE定的稿。

3. 著力指出原本正確被他改錯的地方。


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David Shen  Identity Verified
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样板戏《红灯记》 第二场 【接受任务】 Aug 10, 2007

样板戏《红灯记》 第二场 【接受任务】


李奶奶:

唱【西皮散板】

打渔的人,经得起狂风巨浪;(笔译的人,经得起推敲对仗)
打猎的人,哪怕虎豹豺狼。 (口译的人,哪怕镜头采访)
任凭你昏天黑地能多久! (不知他鸡眼鸭嘴能懵多久)
革命的火焰一定要大放光芒。(译作的好坏一定有用户反映)

[铁梅挎货篮进屋。] (翻译拿了稿件交差)

铁 梅: 奶奶!(翻译:校对!)
李奶奶: 铁梅!(校对:翻译!)
铁 梅: 奶奶,我爹说:表叔马上就要来了。
[放下货篮]奶奶,我怎么有那么多的表叔哇?(我翻的东西你怎么会有那么多的改动哇?)
李奶奶: 哦。咱们家的老姑奶奶多,你表叔就多呗。(哦。咱中文里可随意套字成词, 再说蛤蟆可称蟾蜍呗。)
铁 梅: 奶奶,那今儿来的是哪个呀?(哪,我用“蛤蟆”的地方你全改成“蟾蜍”了呢,还是蟾蜍蛤蟆全上去啦?)
李奶奶: 甭问。来了你就知道了。(甭问。)
铁 梅: 嗯。奶奶,您不告诉我,我也知道。(......?)
李奶奶: 知道?你知道个啥?


铁 梅: 奶奶,您听我说!(翻译:校对,您听我说!)

唱【西皮流水】

我家的表叔数不清, (可改可不改的数不清)
没有大事不登门。 (没有大错别争论)
虽说是,虽说是亲眷又不相认,(PM虽说是,虽说是同行又不知情,)
可他比亲眷还要亲。 (有时比外行还要扯不清。)
爹爹和奶奶齐声唤亲人, (翻译和校对齐心对译文)
这里的奥妙我也能猜出几分。(这里的奥妙我不说你也能猜出几分)
他们和爹爹都一样, (PM和我们都一样)
都有一颗红亮的心。 (想给顾客象样的译文)


[李玉和背交通员急上...] (PM收到难度大的急件...)

交通员: [苏醒]请问你此地可有个扳道的李师傅?(PM: 请问你可有比较专门分工的翻译和校对?)

李玉和: 我就是。(我们常常合作的项目是ABC)

[李玉和、交通员对暗号。] (双方向PM报价)

交通员: 我是卖木梳的。 (PM:我是接项目的。)
李玉和: 有桃木的吗? (翻译和校对:有适合我们的项目吗?)
交通员: 有。要现钱。 (PM:有。给现钱。)
李玉和: 好,你等着。 (翻译和校对:好,你等着。)

[李玉和示意李奶奶拿灯试探。](PM:给一小篇让他俩试译)

李奶奶: [举煤油灯看交通员] 老乡…… 校对:(拿出改得面目全非的译文)老乡……)
交通员: [见暗号不对] 谢谢你们救了我,我走啦! (PM:见进度不对,谢谢你们救了我,我走啦!)
李玉和: [高举号志灯] 同志! (翻译和校对(拿出齐心协力译校的稿件)同志!)
交通员: [激动地] 我可找到你啦! (PM:(激动地)我可找到你们啦!)

......


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jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 19:04
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
我跟一個潛在的REVIEWER的談判 Aug 10, 2007

M=我。

EMAIL 1

M 請告訴我﹐做REVIEW按照英文千字怎麼算﹖

REPLY﹕

很難講。有的翻譯做得很差﹐跟我自己翻譯差不多。

EMAIL 2。

M 那么﹐ 你能否給我平均數﹖我知道有的翻譯做得很差﹐但有的也做得很好﹐如能長期合作﹐工作量會EVEN UP。因為不可能讓你審閱的都是很差的稿﹐有時﹐好的稿件你也許一個字也不用改。

REPLY﹕我真無法給你一個平均數。有時翻譯很濫﹐我會收比我自己翻譯還高一些的價格。


M。去你媽的﹐你當你是誰呀﹖﹗(這個寫好了﹐ 沒發出去﹐不再聯繫就算了)。


可笑的是﹐ 她說她審閱做別人的濫稿﹐ 比她自己翻譯收費還高。

邏輯有點混亂﹐不敢進一步談。


還有一個﹐ 一聽我是美國的﹐校對費用報給我USD120/1000 WORDS。


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Sherrill_xue
Local time: 07:04
English to Chinese
+ ...
听上去感觉国际翻译市场还蛮勾心斗角的。 Aug 10, 2007

不知道用勾心斗角是不是有点过了。。不过看了各位前辈的评论,确实有点害怕自己刚进去就被人给砸出来。。呵呵

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校对者将译文乱改一通,胸闷。(Do you know how to be a QUALIFIED Proofreader/Editor?)

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