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srpsko-hrvatski
Thread poster: Seadeta Osmani

dkalinic
Local time: 23:43
Croatian to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Sorry, but... Jun 22, 2011

Piotrnikitin wrote:

The difference between WRITTEN Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian is no greater than between:

1) British, American and Irish English;
2) "Dutch" Dutch and "Belgian" Dutch;
3) "German" German and "Austrian" German.

Spoken variants differ even less than in the languages listed above.

As far my field (law) is concerned, the difference is simply negligible.

In Kudoz, having four language variants only confuses matters. I believe Kudoz should use only one option: "Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian" (in alphabetical order as to avoid useless political debates).



Sorry, Piotr, but this is simply not right. If you take a legal text produced in Croatia and another one in Serbia you'll see that there are lots of differences. It's not just terminology but also grammar, syntax, semantics, prosody... This is why I always ask my clients what country they intend to publish their texts for and tell them that Serbo-Croatian doesn't exist. He/she should be aware of the fact that texts in Serbian aren't accepted in Croatia nor Croatian texts would be widely accepted in Serbia. I'm a native speaker of Croatian and couldn't translate into Serbian. As for the Austrian German, it doesn't differ much from German spoken in Germany on the written level if the text isn't too specific.

Regards,
Davor


 

Dragomir Kovacevic  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 23:43
Italian to Serbian
+ ...
. Jun 23, 2011

.

[Edited at 2011-06-23 15:56 GMT]


 

John Farebrother  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
French to English
+ ...
krumpir/krompir etc Jun 23, 2011

Vera Orloff wrote:

I (You say rajcica, I say paradajz, I say hleb, you say hljeb, that other guy says kruh, juha, supa, etc, etc - how about we all just eat? Dobar tek! Prijatno!)


You forgot 'bujrum'!


 

Sherefedin MUSTAFA
Netherlands
Local time: 23:43
Member
English to Macedonian
+ ...
Aferim, Jovane Jun 23, 2011

Taman tako je, majstore!

 

Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 23:43
Member (2009)
German to Serbian
+ ...
Stupnjevi razumijevanja Jun 25, 2011

Vera Orloff wrote:
I think that most people would agree that all three are understandable in all three countries, don't you agree?

I hope I haven't offended my British counterparts with my overuse of contractions and perverted spelling. Please don't correct or patronize me if you understand me. It can be quite distressing, and is definitely unecessary. (You say rajcica, I say paradajz, I say hleb, you say hljeb, that other guy says kruh, juha, supa, etc, etc - how about we all just eat? Dobar tek! Prijatno!)


Ovo u prvom paragrafu je točno, ali sa raznim stupnjevima razumijevanja. Mislim da se ljudi iz Bosne najbolje snalaze u svim formama, zato što tu i jesu zastupljene sve forme ili se s njima dolazi u doticaj.

Da, uzeli ste dobar primjer između britanskog i am. engleskog, evo recimo u hrvatskom se isto tako s modalima koriste puni infinitivi, u srpskom "da" infinitivi, a u bosanskom i jedni i drugi.

Primjer:

Moram da jedem , sr
Moram jesti, hr

U Bosni su zastupljena oba.

A inače se moram složiti s Davorom da u pravnom jeziku i te kako postoje lokalne razlike.

[Edited at 2011-06-25 22:08 GMT]


 

feet01
Local time: 23:43
Dictionaries of differences Sep 14, 2011

Piotrnikitin wrote:

The difference between WRITTEN Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian is no greater than between:
1) British, American and Irish English;
2) "Dutch" Dutch and "Belgian" Dutch;
3) "German" German and "Austrian" German.


The difference between written Serbain and Croatian for instance is that Croatian is
written in Latin alphabet - and Serbian is written in cyrillic, although they also write in
Latin. Now, you wouldn't claim that this is not a significant difference?

In spoken language, words that are written identically in both languages can be pronounced - and can sound - different!
For example, Serbian has a different pronunciation of a wovel "e" than Croatian
(more "open", I think) - I'm not phonetics expert - but that is
one of the things with which you can easily distinguish Croatian from Serbian speaker.

If something is similar, that does not mean that it is the same...

For istance, for "mixed pizza", in Cro you'll say: "miješana pizza" and in Serb "kombinovana pizza".
and it wouldn't be correct to mix "miješana" with "kombinovana" in some text...

Piotrnikitin wrote:
As far my field (law) is concerned, the difference is simply negligible.


Is it really?
Srb: krivično pravo, Cro: kazneno pravo (criminal law).
And for further comparison, you can look at this and then compare:
http://www.zakoni.rs/krivicni-zakonik/
http://www.poslovniforum.hr/zakoni/kazneni_zakon.asp

Now, if one language has different expressions for some things (not all) than the other language,
then the situation is clear. There are similarities and differences! Similarities come frome the fact
that all of mentined languages (Bosnian, Cro, Serb...) have the same origin
(Old Church Slavonic - togehter with Macedonian & Slovenian...)
So let me conclude the opposite of what you wanted to say:
With this languages it is the similar situation as with BE & AE,
or Czech and Slovak language (very similar - but not the same!) or Russian and Ukrainian!
Now, if you studied Russian, you can understand and make conversation with Ukrainian people -
but can you translate texts/books from Ukr to Russ language without studying Ukrainian? I think not.

(OK, if you are Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian you don't need translation between those
languages to understand them - but the clear differences do exsist.)


Or to be even more clear... It is like saying: Peach and nectarine are the same fruit.
They are from the same family of fruit-trees, they are similar - but not the same.
And some people distinguish one from the other. To to other people - it is the same thing...

During the communist Yugoslavia there were atempts for unification of the language: it was said
by linguists that we have only one language, which is to be called C-S...
or, like one of them said: You could call it the East or West variant of Croato-Serbian language.
That is past and gone - but on the Net you have a lot of pages of (or on) Serbocroatian, e. g.:

http://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srpskohrvatska_Wikipedija
(Of course, you have also separate Cro, Bosnian, Serb Wikipedia...)

It may be of interest for you to know that there are books (actually, dictionaries) with
list of words (list of differences) between Cro & Serb:

Jovan Ćirilov, Hrvatsko-srpski r(j)ečnik inačica
Vladimir Brodnjak: Rječnik razlika između hrvatskoga i srpskoga jezika

Now... what for would you need a dictionary of differences between two languages?
The reason would be to know your language...
Well, this is like AE i BE marks in English dictionaries to distinguish British pronounciation from American.
You know, in Croatian, if you use Serbian words in text it sounds... strange - e. g., for taking a
photograph, I say: fotografirati and my Eastern neigbour says:
fotografisati. Word root is the same - but suffix is different and
-isati just does not sound "Croatish". Croatian linguists would call it
a foreign element from Serbian in Croatian Language.
Small difference - but a difference.

Also, Serbian has borrowed more words from Russian which won't sound
good if you use it in Croatian: vinovnik = guilty person (Cro: krivac, uzročnik)
prevazići = to overcome something (premašiti, nadvladati),
učestvovati = to participate (sudjelovati) etc.

In Cro it is established to say/write: Italija (Italy) BUT:
Talijan, talijanski (Italian).
In Serbian you always have i: Italija, Italian...


[Edited at 2011-09-15 15:46 GMT]


 

feet01
Local time: 23:43
different stuff Sep 15, 2011

And very interesting thing is (at least to me) that there are a lot of words which have different gender:
Srb - Cro
planet (masculine) - planeta (feminine) - planet
komet (m) - kometa (f) - comet
poseta (f) - posjet (m) - to visit
minut (m) - minuta (f) - minute
laža (f) - laž (m) - lie

One phonem difference:
neko - netko (somebody)
duvan - duhan (tobacco)
fitohemija - fitokemija (phytochemistry)
flautis
... See more
And very interesting thing is (at least to me) that there are a lot of words which have different gender:
Srb - Cro
planet (masculine) - planeta (feminine) - planet
komet (m) - kometa (f) - comet
poseta (f) - posjet (m) - to visit
minut (m) - minuta (f) - minute
laža (f) - laž (m) - lie

One phonem difference:
neko - netko (somebody)
duvan - duhan (tobacco)
fitohemija - fitokemija (phytochemistry)
flautista, e - flautist, -a (flautist, flutist)
latinista, -e - latinist, -a (Latin poet/scholar)
srećan - sretan (lucky guy)
ćuti - šuti (be quiet)

Different words
točak - kotač (wheel)
vajar - kipar (sculptor)
ljubopitljiv - radoznao, znatiželjan (curious)
vaš - uš (louse, lice)
vazduh - zrak (air); vazduhoplovstvo - zrakoplovstvo (air forces)
Vodolija - vodenjak (Aquarius)
volšebnik - čarobnjak, magičar, vilenjak (magician, elf)
štampa - tisak (print; newspapers)
hor - zbor (choir); horsko pevanje - zborno pjevanje (choir singing)
fudbal - nogomet (football)
uhapsiti - uhititi (to capture a criminal)
sedmica - tjedan (a week), jednom sedmično - jednom tjedno (once a week)

Different expressions
dvorska budala - dvorska luda (court jester)
parčad papira - komadići papira (pieces of paper)

Different names
Snežana - Snjeguljica (Snow White)
Uspavana Lepotica - Trnoružica (Sleeping Beauty)
Viljem - Vilim (Wilhelm)
Vavilon - Babilon (Babylon)
Španija - Španjolska (Spain)
Arlezijanka - Arležanka (L'Arlesienne by George Bizet)
etc.

Also, Croatian has Slavic names for months: siječanj, veljača, ožujak...
(Jan, Feb, March...) while Serbian has international (januar, februar, mart... etc.)


[Edited at 2011-09-15 10:51 GMT]
Collapse


 

Dragomir Kovacevic  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 23:43
Italian to Serbian
+ ...
za noge, jer nije ni za glavu ni za rep Sep 15, 2011

Never read so many nonsenses in such a small place. I refer to two posts by feet01.

The colleague before, if I am not wrong, a speaker of native English, was explaining how the differences between several territorial EN languages, were bigger than the differences between HR, SR and other derivatives.

And what feet01 keeps saying here, is that poseta and posjet, planet and planeta, minut and minuta - represent a crucial difference, while, as to me, they are just a nuance
... See more
Never read so many nonsenses in such a small place. I refer to two posts by feet01.

The colleague before, if I am not wrong, a speaker of native English, was explaining how the differences between several territorial EN languages, were bigger than the differences between HR, SR and other derivatives.

And what feet01 keeps saying here, is that poseta and posjet, planet and planeta, minut and minuta - represent a crucial difference, while, as to me, they are just a nuance of one or another variant.

Therefore, it is not strange when feet01 quotes Razlikovni rjecnik by Drobnjak - oh, yes, you said that the book in question is useful for studying one's proper mother language, but isn't it that the said "Dictionary of differences" makes one learn how to widen the gap between two variants? Instead of narrowing it.

However, it's all Serbian, and will always be Serbian, don't worry, feet01.

feet01 wrote:

And very interesting thing is (at least to me) that there are a lot of words which have different gender:
Srb - Cro
planet (masculine) - planeta (feminine) - planet
komet (m) - kometa (f) - comet
poseta (f) - posjet (m) - to visit
minut (m) - minuta (f) - minute
laža (f) - laž (m) - lie


[Edited at 2011-09-16 08:24 GMT]
Collapse


 

feet01
Local time: 23:43
slight nuance Sep 15, 2011

Dragomir Kovacevic wrote:

Never read so many nonsenses in such a small place. I refer to two posts by feet01.

The colleague before, if I am not wrong, a speaker of native English, was explaining how the differences between several territorial EN languages, were bigger than the differences between HR, SR and other derivatives.


I also said there are differences... and similarities but since Mr. Piotrnikitin stated his
opinion that

Piotrnikitin wrote:
As far my field (law) is concerned, the difference is simply negligible.


I gave him some links to look at those "negligible" differences in kazneni & krivični zakon(ik)
/criminal law/. It is obvious that we, natural speakers of those languages, distinguish
(or feel) that differences better.

Maybe if we had Yugoslavia for 50 more years, we would lose our languages
in favor of one variant - unnatural mixture of words like, maybe, kombinirovano for kombinovano/kombinirano...


Dragomir Kovacevic wrote: And what noge01 keeps saying here, is that poseta and posjet, planet and planeta, minut and minuta - represent a crucial difference, while, as to me, they are just a nuance of one or another variant.


Well... It just not "one letter difference". If the word are in different gender, then their
declination is different, adjectives have to be in the certain gender and so on.
(Jučer smo imali lijep posjet. / Juče smo imali lepu posetu.)

Nuance... Do you mean it in sense:
a) a slight degree of difference, as in meaning, feeling, or tone; a gradation?
b) expression or appreciation of subtle shades of meaning, feeling, or tone?


 

Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 23:43
Member (2009)
German to Serbian
+ ...
Kad već navodite razlike Sep 16, 2011

feet01 wrote:

poseta (f) - posjet (m) - to visit


Poseta/posjet je imenica, ne glagol, ogromna razlika? Glagoli u infinitivu (to visit) nemaju rod, zar ne?


 

feet01
Local time: 23:43
corrupted version Sep 16, 2011


However, it's all Serbian, and will always be Serbian, don't worry, feet01.

feet01 wrote:

And very interesting thing is (at least to me) that there are a lot of words which have different gender:
Srb - Cro
planet (masculine) - planeta (feminine) - planet
komet (m) - kometa (f) - comet
poseta (f) - posjet (m) - to visit
minut (m) - minuta (f) - minute
laža (f) - laž (m) - lie


[Edited at 2011-09-16 08:24 GMT]


Yes, it's all Serbian. On the left side of the column.
On the right, it is - Croatian.

Our languages don't have to be like checking-point on border-line.

There are a lot of Croatian artists (musicians) who often perform in Serbia -
and a lot of Serbian artists who do the same in Croatia - so they are
very popular and are loved on both sides. Some of our artist said they
would never perform in the East - Tereza Kesovija, for instance -
but she changed her mind and did perform.

I also think (my personal opinion) that we (Croats) don't have that good movies
as you do - that is, I prefer to watch your films than our production. A good
example for this is Čarlston za Ognjenku (aka Tears for sale
or Charleston & Vendetta: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0380249/.

The beautiful actress from that movie, Katarina Radivojević is very popular in
Croatia.

You can talk ''bout language on serious basis - or with humor.
One of the most popular Serbian singers/songwriters, Balasevic,
once, on a concert in my homeland, said:

Actually, I sing on my mother language which is Croatian. But, there is one little
problem about it. I use one corrupted version of that language, so called - Serbian.


...and continued:

What are borders? Just small distances between people... I am at
home here
... ("here" meaning in Croatia...)
http://www.tportal.hr/showtime/estrada/3197/Balasevic-ismijao-srpski-jezik.html

Of course, the Serbian press didn't like that statement - and the newspapers wrote
that the artist is "full of c*ap".

Well, I guess they (the newspapers) don't share his sense for wit.
Cause all of that what he said to Croatian audience, he said it because he is very witty
(like Oscar Wilde) and he meant no harm. And he can say about his language
whatever he wants.

And it is well known that he once changed lyrics on concert for his Croatian fans.
Original lyrics, translated in English go:

I don't speak Hungarian very good
Maybe a word or two, if it's understood...

(Slabo divanim madžarski)

and he changed it to:

I don't speak Croatian very good...

So he's very witty, likes wordplay and doesn't put language borders around himself...

And one more thing. When the leader of The Pogues, Shane MacGowan, had a concert in
Zagreb, he saluted his Croatian fans with this:

So, you are the nation who invented the fu*king cravat?
http://www.net.hr/film-glazba/page/2011/07/15/0001006.html
...and he got ovations from the crowd...

A little explanation of that:
The sartorial word "cravat" derives from the French "cravate," a corrupt French
pronunciation of "Croat" — in Croatian, "Hr̀vāt".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cravat


[Edited at 2011-09-16 19:45 GMT]


 

alz  Identity Verified
Croatia
Local time: 23:43
English to Croatian
+ ...
contradiction or bad information? Sep 16, 2011

Piotrnikitin wrote:

The difference between WRITTEN Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian is no greater than between:

1) British, American and Irish English;
2) "Dutch" Dutch and "Belgian" Dutch;
3) "German" German and "Austrian" German.

Spoken variants differ even less than in the languages listed above.

As far my field (law) is concerned, the difference is simply negligible.



At the same time Piotrnikitin, in his profile here on ProZ.com (http://www.proz.com/translator/980170), states:

" ...Translating a legal document is more than just retyping it in another language. A true legal translator must have both the profound understanding of complicated legal concepts and the ability to reproduce them in the target language in such a way that they are clear to a lawyer from the target jurisdiction...."

Contradiction or bad information on differences in legal Serbian and legal Croatian language?

Some (DK) would say nuances instead of differences, but I do not belive legal terminology stands or tolerates nuances.


 

Dragomir Kovacevic  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 23:43
Italian to Serbian
+ ...
. Sep 16, 2011

.

[Edited at 2011-09-16 13:20 GMT]


 

eleonora_r  Identity Verified
Local time: 23:43
English to Croatian
+ ...
Correction Sep 16, 2011

[quote]feet01 wrote:


However, it's all Serbian, and will always be Serbian, don't worry, feet01.

feet01 wrote:

And very interesting thing is (at least to me) that there are a lot of words which have different gender:
Srb - Cro
planet (masculine) - planeta (feminine) - planet
komet (m) - kometa (f) - comet
poseta (f) - posjet (m) - to visit
minut (m) - minuta (f) - minute
laža (f) - laž (m) - lie


Yes, it's all Serbian. On the left side of the column.
On the right, it is - Croatian.


[Edited at 2011-09-16 08:24 GMT]


I'm sorry but you're wrong. Planet and komet should be on the right as these are Croatian, while planeta and kometa are Serbian.


[Edited at 2011-09-16 18:59 GMT]

[Edited at 2011-09-16 19:00 GMT]


 

feet01
Local time: 23:43
misplaced Sep 16, 2011

eleonora_r wrote:
I'm sorry but you're wrong. Planet and komet should be on the right as these are Croatian, while planeta and kometa are Serbian.


You're right, I've misplaced the words in columns (writing in the hurry). Errors happen,
I'm just human...



[Edited at 2011-09-16 19:36 GMT]


 
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