I would buy Dejavu X Pro at the current price right now, but...
Thread poster: Pavel Tsvetkov

Pavel Tsvetkov  Identity Verified
Bulgaria
Local time: 09:04
Member (2008)
English to Bulgarian
+ ...

Moderator of this forum
Jan 31, 2010

... I cannot use it with more than 2 TMs or TBs at a time. Yes, I know this was more than enough functionality back in 2003, and, yes, I do realize that Dejavu X is probably the most stable CAT tool on the market today (with 7 years of ironining-out the small wrinkles behind its back it had better be), but lacking the above-mentioned functionality is a deal-breaker for me.

This is how the guys at Atril view the problem:

This decision was made based on what the majority of the Professional edition’s target users are expected to need. Your specific needs may, indeed, be different. Even so, since Déjà Vu X allows you to combine databases by importing one into another, you should be able to create the combinations of databases that you need to be able to have what you require when working with any particular project, even with the number of associated databases limited to two.

While the ability to create packages is, indeed, a functionality that should be reseved for the Workgroup version, and the Guaranteed Matches may be used as a reason to ask for such a hefty price tag (2250 EUR), I do not see why multiple TMs should not be unlocked for the Pro version as well. Of course, freelancers have more than one translation memory, just like they have more than one client?

Here is my idea (and I hope to get your assistance on this): Let us ask Atril, while lowering their prices to a more bearable level, to be so kind as to also unlock the multiple TMs/TBs functionality for the Pro version as well - that can really boost sales, and will be very easy to implement.

And how about older customers, who have already bought the Pro version? I am sure a simple patch can do the job, and such older customers would be thrilled to receive the functionality.

As the saying goes: "The voice of the people is the voice of God!", so voice your opinion, and let us make things happen!


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Herbert Eppel  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:04
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German to English
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Why not use Big Mama TM? Jan 31, 2010

Pavel Tsvetkov wrote:
Of course, freelancers have more than one translation memory, just like they have more than one client?


Have you heard of the 'big mama' approach? Like many other DejaVu users, I put all my translations into a single TM - properly labelled with client and subject IDs so that DejaVu can retrieve entries accordingly.

Occasionally it is useful to be able to add an additional TM, of course.

I actually have the Workgroup version but I rarely use more then 2 TMs.

Once you have discovered the benefits of 'big mama' approach I dare say 2 the TM limit of the Pro version will be far less restrictive than it might appear to you at present.


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Selcuk Akyuz  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 10:04
Member (2006)
English to Turkish
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2 TMs Jan 31, 2010

I normally use only one TM. Use of several TMs may be useful only if the matches were displayed with different colours, e.g. matches from TM1 in red, matches from TM2 in green or in another colour.

And one can also open other TMs in another window, or in another "instance" of DVX. It is even possible to open a copy of the project with other TMs. So, there are always solutions in DVX.

Well, I pretranslate the file with the client's TM and then use my big TM, and if required open and search in other TMs; however, I am not against Pavel's opinion. It may be good for increasing the sales as well.


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Pavel Tsvetkov  Identity Verified
Bulgaria
Local time: 09:04
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TOPIC STARTER
I know it is possible, but it is not the best or most convenient option Jan 31, 2010

Dear Herbert and Selcuk,

Thank you for your suggestions. I know there are ways to skirt round this lack of functionality (after all, I have been doing the same with Trados 2007 for years), but overall having just one BIG TM or creating project specific TMs can be time-consuming or simply risky.

This has been discussed time and again on www.proz.com forums. There are the issues of security, the issues of confidentiality, and finally the issues of normal human logic - it is just not wise "to load all your treasures on a single ship". Anything could happen with that one big TMs - a power failure while your are defragmenting the file, etc. and sometimes, even if you have spare copies, things can go wrong.

The important thing is: although you can try and make up for that lack of functionality, the best thing will be to have it.

So, let us request it.

And I am really hoping that someone with decision making powers on Atril, will appear on this forum and discuss the problem with us.

Regards,
Pavel


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Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:04
French to Polish
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Huge data bases... import filters... Jan 31, 2010

Herbert Eppel wrote:

Pavel Tsvetkov wrote:
Of course, freelancers have more than one translation memory, just like they have more than one client?


Have you heard of the 'big mama' approach? Like many other DejaVu users, I put all my translations into a single TM - properly labelled with client and subject IDs so that DejaVu can retrieve entries accordingly.

Occasionally it is useful to be able to add an additional TM, of course.

I actually have the Workgroup version but I rarely use more then 2 TMs.

Once you have discovered the benefits of 'big mama' approach I dare say 2 the TM limit of the Pro version will be far less restrictive than it might appear to you at present.

I don't agree.
The Big mom subcategorization may be not enough.
I have several big or very big TMs I don't need for everyday work.
I would exclude 'em from the searches 'cause it slows down DVX.
Decidely, the permanent import/export approach for 500k-1M TU TMs is not a good solution here.

BTW.
The DVX import filters are damn unstable.
E.g., I have now a 800 MB TMX, 750k units.
After a minute, I receive a message "The wizard successfully imported 0 entries."
MQ and Trados import 'em.
It takes some time but they do.

Cheers
GG


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Herbert Eppel  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:04
Member (2006)
German to English
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Big Mama rules Jan 31, 2010


This has been discussed time and again on www.proz.com forums. There are the issues of security, the issues of confidentiality, and finally the issues of normal human logic - it is just not wise "to load all your treasures on a single ship". Anything could happen with that one big TMs


It may have well have been discussed time and time again on ProZ and one obviously needs to keep a backup in case something goes wrong (actually, I keep at least 3 backups not just of my TMs but all my user data), but this doesn't alter the fact the Big Mama approach has clear benefits. I've been using it since I started using DejaVu back in 1998, and I wouldn't do it any other way.


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Herbert Eppel  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:04
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German to English
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What's the problem? Jan 31, 2010

Grzegorz Gryc wrote:
I have several big or very big TMs I don't need for everyday work.


In that case you wouldn't want to attach them to a project simultaneously anyway, would you?


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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 08:04
Member (2003)
Polish to German
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Big Mama was my approach for Trados Jan 31, 2010

since it could just use one single TM.
And after many years using it and trying to keep track of what belongs where I'm finally happy to be able to use several small TMs now and the Big Mama for my jobs.
However, the Big Mama will not be upgraded so often now, as it is absolutely not necessary.
The ability to use more TMs is one of the greatest advantages of Studio and I must admit I am quite suprised by the limitation to just two TMs by DejaVu, which has been so often quoted to be superior to all other CATs.
Now using two TMs might be sufficient for the most jobs, but is not always sufficient.
The Big Mama approach does not give me the necessary security of getting matches with the security I need. So now I use the customer TM as the main one and so many other TMs I find helpful - matches are shown of course from all of them, but I can read from what TM the match is coming. And on top I give a penalty of 1% to all other TMs but the customers one. This way I clearly see what comes from where.
So I really would expect similar behaviour from DejaVu...


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Selcuk Akyuz  Identity Verified
Turkey
Local time: 10:04
Member (2006)
English to Turkish
+ ...
Even one TM is sufficient in Deja Vu Jan 31, 2010

We add client and subject information in projects, translation and terminology databases. So, a match from the same client or same subject will have priority, in other words it will be displayed above the other matches. Also we can prefer newer matches to be displayed, or matches from a a certain TM to be displayed with priority.

Jerzy I know that you are a Trados expert, but please try DVX as well.


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Grzegorz Gryc  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:04
French to Polish
+ ...
Only one? Jan 31, 2010

Herbert Eppel wrote:

Grzegorz Gryc wrote:
I have several big or very big TMs I don't need for everyday work.

In that case you wouldn't want to attach them to a project simultaneously anyway, would you?

Only one?
The first is the big mama, of course

PS.
Yes, I have Workgroup too...
Normally, I need 2-4 TMs, the max was 7, AFAIR.
I maintain always separate reference DBs (read only) and junk DBs (e.g. related to poor OCR).
I have separate TMs for some important big customers and/or big projects.
With these assumptions, the 2 TMs of DVX Pro is not enough.

Cheers
GG


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KSL Berlin  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 07:04
Member (2003)
German to English
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DV's TM logic Jan 31, 2010

Jerzy, do you understand how the hierarchy of attributes for customer and subject area work in a DVX TM? If not, it might interest you. I don't think anyone else does this. In Trados, such attributes are just window dressing.

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Jerzy Czopik  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 08:04
Member (2003)
Polish to German
+ ...
I never suggested I would know DejaVu Jan 31, 2010

And I did not write I dislike it.
I was simply wondering about this limitation, having heard previously that DejaVu would support multiple TMs.
After having used this concept for w hile now in Studio I simply must admit, that it is much superior to all previous Trados attemts - because:

In Trados, such attributes are just window dressing.

even this is a compliment in my eyes, to be honest. For me this did not work ever - because I translate into Polish and I have to use multiple 100% matches.
So however sofosticated the TM administration might be, I admit that I do not have much eager to learn that. Using multiple TMs is simply much easier and gives me exactly that, what I tried to achieve with segment flagging in Trados (with no real sucess indeed).


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David Turner  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:04
French to English
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This may be a fair point... Jan 31, 2010

Pavel Tsvetkov wrote:
I do not see why multiple TMs should not be unlocked for the Pro version as well. Of course, freelancers have more than one translation memory, just like they have more than one client?


... but most experienced DVX users use the "Big Mama" approach described by Herbert and, probably more importantly still, a "Big Papa" (termbase).
I have the Workgroup version and rarely use more than two TMs or TBs.
You can also import TMs or TBs into the Lexicon to use as a third TM or TB.
You can also import TMs or TBs directly into the project as TMX files alongside the files to be translated and use sorting and filtering to identify fuzzy matches and sub-sentence matches.


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Wolfgang Jörissen  Identity Verified
Belize
Member
Dutch to German
+ ...
Convinced BigMama user and still in favour of unlimited TMs Feb 2, 2010

I have been feeding my BigMama TM since 10 years now and I still like the approach. Having the Workgroup version, the TM limitation does not affect me, so I had the opportunity of watching my own behaviour when it comes to TM usage in my projects. And pretty often, the number of TMs I attach to a project is higher than 2. Quite frequently, I receive a TM from a client that I want or have to keep seperate from my own resources. Also, I sometimes share TMs with colleagues in a joint project, and this might even add as many as 2 TMs on top of my own BigMama.
And sometimes, it is simply my own laziness: client sends me an update of the TM I have attached to the project. Instead of joining it with the other TM, I just attach it as a new TM. I really appreciate this freedom and I think that Pro version users deserve to have it.

[Edited at 2010-02-02 04:11 GMT]


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