Add placeholders/tags in target
Thread poster: Heike Behl, Ph.D.

Heike Behl, Ph.D.  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:06
Member (2003)
English to German
+ ...
Sep 24, 2007

I have been playing around with Deja Vu for a bit. It has many useful features, but I don't think I could be happy with using placeholders instead of visible (identifiable) tags.

I'm translation from English into German and there are many occasions where I have to add tags to the target segment that are not present in the source. An example are expressions consisting of multiple words in English that have to be presented in a different word order in German. Or English often uses capitalization in manuals to indicate menu items where German convetionally would use bold face.

e.g.:
The first step is to find a solution for the problem.
Erster Schritt: eine Lösung für das Problem finden.

Select Open Project from the File menu.
Wählen Sie Projekt öffnen aus dem Dateimenü.

I couldn't find any UI option that would allow me to insert placeholders in the target that don't exist in the source or to format the target in any way. If I duplicate the placeholders for bold face in my first example or copy them from some other segment as would be necessary for my second example, DVX complains when I export the translation and I have to delete the placeholders.

It seems in order to be able to export the translation, the number, order etc. of the placeholders has to be identical with the source. The target cannot even start or end with a code if the code was preceded or followed by words in the source. This puts even more constraints on producing an idiomatic, stylistically and grammatically correct translation.

How do you deal with these restrictions? An extra step in the exported target file? How's your experience with those tags in general?

Do you bother to find out what these placeholders represent or are you happy assuming their identity?


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David Turner  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:06
French to English
+ ...
Post-processing Sep 25, 2007

Hi Heike,
One workaround could be to use placeholders like *Bold* or _Italics_ around portions to represent tags that are not present in the source and then use Xavier Pitel's macro to post-process the exported file (replace "Bold" with real formatting, replace _Italics_ with real formatting, etc.).
This macro also allows you to fix straight apostrophes, double spaces, and non-breaking spaces inside « » marks, among other things.

http://xapitel.club.fr/outilsTraducteur.html

HTH,
David Turner


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Heike Behl, Ph.D.  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:06
Member (2003)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks, David! Sep 25, 2007

That looks like a useful tool.

However, a lot of my work is actually done in other formats than Word: html, xml, InDesign, Excel (ie. TTX). Furthermore, the html/xml projects consist usually of a high number of files. So I'd need to be able to use a batch program to change all the formatting.

But then I don't see why I should go through all that extra trouble when I can add all the tags and formatting I need right then and there in TagEditor.

Darn, I had hoped there would be some real alternatives out there...


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Klaus Herrmann  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:06
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
Editing tags/adding tags Sep 25, 2007

Heike Behl, Ph.D. wrote:
So I'd need to be able to use a batch program to change all the formatting.

Editing tags is relatively easy - highlight the tag, press Shift-F6 and edit the tags as required.

Adding tags is the only aspect where I feel DVX is inferior to TagEditor. In your first example however, it's relatively easy and not more time-consuming than in TagEditor:

The first step is to find a solution for the problem.
Erster Schritt: eine Lösung für das Problem finden.


...appears in DVX as:

The first step is to {35}find a solution{36} for the problem.
Erster Schritt: {35}eine Lösung{36} für das Problem finden.


DVX doesn't care if you are re-using codes, so
{35}{36}The first step is to {35}find a solution{36} for the problem.
Erster Schritt: {35}eine Lösung{36} für das Problem {35}finden{36}.


Done.

If you need bolding again later in a segment, you can always "borrow" the {35}bolding{36} codes from the segment above. Now add that to an autotext (in the Options menu of DVX, adding say "bold"/{35} and "unbold"/{36}). This will give you easy access to this attribute: type "bold" or "unbold" and press Ctrl+Shift+F3.

If additional formatting codes are required (not used in any of the project's files), it gets somewhat clumsy. The best option (again IMHO) is to create a "template" document in the appropriate program, enter a sentence using the required formatting. This has to be done only once, obviously. Importing this file into your DVX project as the first file (for lowest code numbers) will make available these formatting codes in any other files of the project. While not overly elegant, it works, and for me, the clumsiness is compensated for by the superior performance of DVX in the translation-related areas.

Also, keep in mind that all file types you mentioned can be post-processed in an editor, so using UltraEdit and some macros works for them as well.

Having said all that, yes, I'd very much like to see an easier option to add codes in DVX.

[Bearbeitet am 2007-09-25 08:10]


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David Turner  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:06
French to English
+ ...
DVX versus TagEditor Sep 25, 2007


Furthermore, the html/xml projects consist usually of a high number of files. So I'd need to be able to use a batch program to change all the formatting.

But then I don't see why I should go through all that extra trouble when I can add all the tags and formatting I need right then and there in TagEditor.


No tool is perfect I guess but if you have a large number of files I guarantee you'll translate them several times faster in Déjà Vu than in TagEditor. You can import a hundred or more files and sort and filter them as if they were one file. In TagEditor, you can only really handle one file at a time. Having saved a lot of time, you could then go back to TagEditor to adjust the font/italic formatting of the (few) files concerned?

David


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Klaus Herrmann  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:06
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
Good example, David Sep 25, 2007

David Turner wrote:
You can import a hundred or more files and sort and filter them as if they were one file. In TagEditor, you can only really handle one file at a time.
David

Now combine that with AutoAssemble and Lexicon....


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David Turner  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:06
French to English
+ ...
Neat tip! Sep 25, 2007

Klaus Herrmann wrote:

Now combine that with AutoAssemble and Lexicon....


Quite so. TagEditor can't have much more than about 5% of DVX's productivity features, but there you go. Some people take a lot of convincing!
Your "tag adding/borrowing" trick was a new one on me and certainly provides a feasible workaround to the bold tag dilemma. I didn't realise you could actually edit tags either. Presumably bold on the source side could be edited as italic on the target side and vice versa. You'd need to know what you're doing though as the coding isn't always too clear for the uninitiated

BR,
David


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Heike Behl, Ph.D.  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:06
Member (2003)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
:-) Sep 25, 2007

David Turner wrote:

Klaus Herrmann wrote:

Now combine that with AutoAssemble and Lexicon....


Quite so. TagEditor can't have much more than about 5% of DVX's productivity features, but there you go. Some people take a lot of convincing!




That's after all why I posted this question here... to be convinced!
So keep up the good work and tell me more of the advantages of DVX!


If I add tags, DVX complaints when trying to export the translation. I only have the option to "correct" the tags (ie. delete them or add them to the source as well) or cancel the export. Do you just add the new tags to source and target, Klaus?


As you both, David and Klaus, also list Trados among your CAT tools in your profiles, do you actually use different CAT tools for different projects/purposes? If yes, for which?

One option, I guess, would be to do the proofreading in TE to verify/modify tags as necessary.


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Klaus Herrmann  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 02:06
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
Adding tags on both sides Sep 25, 2007

Heike Behl, Ph.D. wrote:
Do you just add the new tags to source and target, Klaus?

Yes, you have to add them on both sides, otherwise DVX will not export the text.

Heike Behl, Ph.D. wrote:
As you both, David and Klaus, also list Trados among your CAT tools in your profiles, do you actually use different CAT tools for different projects/purposes? If yes, for which?

I use Trados/TE only for very short translations (i.e. if it takes more time to create a DVX project than to translate in TE) or in rare instances when DVX fails to import all segments of a TTX file..Other than that, I bought Trados mainly as a conversion tool to make sure my clients get what they ordered - a real Trados bilingual file.


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David Turner  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:06
French to English
+ ...
:-) Sep 26, 2007

Heike Behl, Ph.D. wrote:
That's after all why I posted this question here... to be convinced!
So keep up the good work and tell me more of the advantages of DVX!


Sorry Heike, I wasn't pointing a finger at you out but rather referring to TagEditor users in general!

I would say that the main advantage of DVX are:
- ability to handle (sort, filter, translate) a large number of files in mixed formats (more than 25 file types) simultaneously in an "All files view"; this gives you an overview of hundreds of HTML files in a website say, or the ability to zoom in and focus on just those sentences which are similar or which contain a specific term or sentence portion
- no add-ons or separate applications: everything is done from the same, single environment
- relevant terms and TM portions are displayed immediately in an "AutoSearch" (translation portions) window as soon as you click on any segment (sentence) (no opening or closing of segments or switching to a separate termbase application)
- sub-sentence portions (phrases and terms) can be assembled manually or automatically to form draft translations which often require very little editing
- propagation: the translation of duplicate (or similar) sentences can be propagated throughout all files as you work
- Lexicon builder (automatic extraction of project terms and phrases)
- full compatibility with TWB-segmented and TTX files

Its main disadvantage is perhaps the limitation imposed by the tag/placeholder approach as already discussed. A grid with bold, italics and underline text shown in semi-Wysiwyg would be an improvement in my view.


As you both, David and Klaus, also list Trados among your CAT tools in your profiles, do you actually use different CAT tools for different projects/purposes? If yes, for which?


Like Klaus, I mainly used TWB for presegmenting to ensure Trados compatibility. I'm also keeping a close eye on MemoQ which looks very promising.

Best regards,
David


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