Working with codes in the DV memory.
Thread poster: Fiona Robson

Fiona Robson
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:13
Member (2005)
Portuguese to English
+ ...
Nov 2, 2007

I am a non-user of Déjà Vu and completely unfamiliar with it, but I have a client who regularly sends me a 2-column Déjà Vu memory, asking me to translate the second column. The problem is it is always full of codes, which hide the flow of the sentence and delay the translation. Also, I am often in doubt as to where to place the codes in the translation. For example "{1636}Recursos Hu{1637}manos" - Would this be "Human Re{1636}sources" or "{1636}Hu{1637}man Resources" or some other variant? The client usually sends the original, but its time-consuming If I have to cross-check to see what every code represents.

Do Déjà Vu users work with these codes visible all the time? or is there some way my client can generate a memory with the codes shown in normal text? (e.g. a word in bold, instead of the code for bold).

Fiona


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Judy Schoen  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:13
English to German
your client needs the codes Nov 2, 2007

Hi Fiona,

DVX hides foramtting in the codes. so if you have a pdf of the text, you can check in most cases, what the code means.
As for the examples of code you give, it looks like the client has not prepared the project the way he should have and generated unwanted codes.
in this case just put the code at the end of the segment.

but if you have "this is {1}bold{2}" where the word bold is written in bold, these codes represent real formatting and should be put in the translation

kind reagrds
Judy Ann


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Fiona Robson
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:13
Member (2005)
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Getting rid of codes Nov 2, 2007

Judy Ann

Thanks for your reply. Most of the codes appear to be four-figure numbers in curly brackets, each number following on from the next. For example "{1964} Gte{1965} Pl{1966}anta {1967}Prod. {1968}Orais {1969}e Tópicos". Also, what would be exact matches (I am using Trados) are not recognized as such because sometimes the codes are in, sometimes not.

I do have the original, but as I said, its so time-consuming if I have to find the place in the original and check every code. You say the client may not not have prepared the project correctly - could you tell me what he should have done instead, and I will let him know.

Regards

Fiona


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KSL Berlin  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 07:13
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
Here's a suggestion for "cleanup" Nov 2, 2007

Fiona Robson wrote:

I do have the original, but as I said, its so time-consuming if I have to find the place in the original and check every code. You say the client may not not have prepared the project correctly - could you tell me what he should have done instead, and I will let him know.


Fiona, I would suggest the following. Forget the two-column export. Do the whole thing in Trados as you are accustomed to doing. Then, assuming this is a Word doc, search and replace all "No Match" segments, changing the }0{ parts to }01{ (1% fuzzy match). This will allow your client to load the whole thing into DV for purposes of proofreading or TM feeding. If the client makes extensive changes and doesn't have a demo copy of Trados with which to clean the exported uncleaned file, offer to do it for him/her. This procedure will also give your client a much cleaner TM, as the Trados segmentation eliminates a lot of superfluous codes.


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Judy Schoen  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:13
English to German
speak with the client first Nov 2, 2007

while Kevin's solution will work for you, your client might not be happy.
Trados has different segmentation rules, so it will mess up his TM and if he created a multilingual project he will have to handle your transaltion outside that project seperately.

e.g. your client should have changed the Word settings and disableld saving of language information and deactivated smart tags. And cleaned up the cahracter formatting etc.

kind regards
Judy Ann


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KSL Berlin  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 07:13
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
That's correct, of course Nov 2, 2007

Judy Schoen wrote:
while Kevin's solution will work for you, your client might not be happy.
Trados has different segmentation rules, so it will mess up his TM and if he created a multilingual project he will have to handle your transaltion outside that project seperately.

e.g. your client should have changed the Word settings and disableld saving of language information and deactivated smart tags. And cleaned up the cahracter formatting etc.


But given that the client was sloppy about preparing the project in the first place or doesn't know how to deal with the excess code problem, the odds are that this will be an acceptable solution. The changes in settings you mention represent a degree of sophistication in the use of the tool such that I would have expected the client to deliver a cleaner project. As far as the segmentation is concerned, we don't even know if the client has the DV segmentation set right in the first place. Many don't. The few percent difference in 100% matches one gets with this approach is usually not a big issue. In this case the client may very well benefit from less garbage in the TM.

But, of course, any major change in the approach to a project must be cleared with the client if the differences are in any way apparent. After all, the job is a contract, and the deliverables produced are different with the approach I suggested.

[Edited at 2007-11-02 13:19]


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Judy Schoen  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:13
English to German
segmentation can be a big issue Nov 2, 2007

Kevin,
I have seen the following differences (Trados/DVX) in a 25000 word project that should have been 15000 matches and 5000 fuzzies and 5000 new words that turned out to be 180000 Fuzzies, 2000 matches.

kind regard
Judy Ann


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KSL Berlin  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 07:13
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
Wow, those numbers are scary Nov 2, 2007

Judy Schoen wrote:
I have seen the following differences (Trados/DVX) in a 25000 word project that should have been 15000 matches and 5000 fuzzies and 5000 new words that turned out to be 180000 Fuzzies, 2000 matches.


Ouch. That would be a killer. The differences I see are typically much less, but of course formatting & other issues play a role.

As you probably know, I am quite fond of DV as a translation tool and use it in preference to all others. But this rogue code issue with Word files is so severe that it almost renders the tool unusable or severely impairs its utility. The situation our colleague is facing here is just one of many variations on this theme. Therefore I wouldn't be the least bit shy about recommending a number of cleanup measures, since nearly any user of DVX will need these now or will lose unspeakable amounts of time dealing with the consequences of these rogue codes.

And assuming that Atril gets the problem licked soon, a TM with all those silly codes in the middle of words will be useless for matching anyway, since the segments would look quite different in the future with an improved filter.

In this specific case, the client might also be unaware of interoperability options with Trados and might be grateful for the opportunities such a "revelation" presents. Maybe not. It never hurts to ask.


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Judy Schoen  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:13
English to German
adjust the word settings Nov 2, 2007

Kevin,
if you are not dealing with a word file coming from pdf
changing your word settings as I mentioned before will get rid of most of the codes.
pdf based wordfiles are a different story.

as for the differences, I know, normaly there are not really big differences, but it can happen.


kind regards
Judy Ann


[Bearbeitet am 2007-11-02 14:06]


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Fiona Robson
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:13
Member (2005)
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
thanks Nov 2, 2007

Thanks again, Kevin and Judy.

I am reluctant to follow Keven's suggestion in this case, as I don't want to do anything that could alter the client's TM settings. It does seem that the problem is a widespread one, and not easily solved. I will pass on all your information to my client, perhaps he will find the solution in there somewhere.
It's true about the high percentage of non-matches. If I were to translate the text in word, then pass the same text through the 2-column DV file using my Trados memory, I believe the matches would be only around 30-40%. I tried it with a previous tanslation, and that's what happened, so the amount of time spent putting the codes back in meant it was not worthwhile using Trados.

Fiona


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Judy Schoen  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:13
English to German
as the client for Trados-external view Nov 2, 2007

assuming your client is using dvx and not dv3, he should be using the workgroup edtition. in the latest build of dvx wg there is an option to export as an external view prepared for trados users.

but any unwanted code will still come up as a tag.
so your client should do his homework first -cleaning up the files

kind regards

Judy Ann


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David Turner  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:13
French to English
+ ...
Forget the two-column external view Nov 3, 2007

Fiona Robson wrote:
I am reluctant to follow Keven's suggestion in this case, as I don't want to do anything that could alter the client's TM settings. It does seem that the problem is a widespread one, and not easily solved. I will pass on all your information to my client, perhaps he will find the solution in there somewhere.
It's true about the high percentage of non-matches. If I were to translate the text in word, then pass the same text through the 2-column DV file using my Trados memory, I believe the matches would be only around 30-40%. I tried it with a previous tanslation, and that's what happened, so the amount of time spent putting the codes back in meant it was not worthwhile using Trados.
Fiona


I would talk to the customer about the problem and forget about the two-column External View. There's no reason for you to waste your time with meaningless codes. If you have a Word original I would suggest to the client that you do the translation in Trados (which is your usual tool after all - unlike Trados clients, DV clients will usually understand this!) and deliver the cleaned up translation AND the bilingual uncleaned file. That way the client can import it into DV using the TWB filter and create a translation memory for future reference.

BR,
David


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David Turner  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:13
French to English
+ ...
Rogue code problem Nov 3, 2007

Judy Schoen wrote:

Kevin,
I have seen the following differences (Trados/DVX) in a 25000 word project that should have been 15000 matches and 5000 fuzzies and 5000 new words that turned out to be 180000 Fuzzies, 2000 matches.

kind regard
Judy Ann


Such differences are more likely to be caused by rogue codes in DV turning exact matches into fuzzy matches rather than any segmentation rule differences between TWB and DV which are usually minor.
BR,
David


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Judy Schoen  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:13
English to German
not the codes Nov 3, 2007

in this case it were the segmentation rules.
I do not remember now, which one caused the problem, I only remember, it was a html project.


Kind regards
Judy Ann


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David Turner  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:13
French to English
+ ...
HTML tags Nov 3, 2007

Judy Schoen wrote:
in this case it were the segmentation rules.
I do not remember now, which one caused the problem, I only remember, it was a html project.
Judy Ann


Probably more a case of internal or external HTML tags being interpreted incorrectly by DV or Trados.
The default segmentation rules of the two tools are basically similar: full stop, exclamation mark, question mark, colon, tab
character and end of paragraph mark.
Customized lists of abbreviations will usually make a bigger difference but these will vary just as much from one Trados setup to another as from Trados to DV or from Trados to Wordfast. If the two tools have the exactly the same abbreviations list, differences will usually be minimal. At least, that's what I've found.

BR,
David


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