| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | How difficult is it to get established without a degree in anything Thread poster: RowanF
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Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:18
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| In a corporate context, there's such a thing as thinking too much | Jun 14, 2014 |
Orrin Cummins wrote: Employers also want to see signs that you "play well" within the existing system. Large firms do not want the "brilliant maverick" type, or people who think they are. They look for employees who will provide a minimum level of competence, who will work well with other employees and who won't foment dissent and revolution. In other words, mindless drones?
To an extent, yes. Managers want people to think and to be competent within a fairly tightly defined range. They do not want people who propose goals and processes that are significantly different to the existing aims and methods.
There's a reason why startups and skunkworks exist: radical innovation is hard to nurture and bring to fruit in large organisations. I suspect that it's mostly the people who get fed up of restrictions in giant firms that eject, take the innovation with them and create startups.
Naturally, different people have different opinions, but I would go as far as to say that this is consensus thought rather than a controversial viewpoint.
So to get back to our original poster, if he wishes to succeed in a large corporation, a degree would help a great deal. If he can find other ways (alternative signals) to convince future employers and clients of his credibility then that's fine, of course. But it's going to be a tough row to hoe.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:18
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Hitting the nail dead on the head | Jun 14, 2014 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
What I'm saying is that the only thing that guarantees success is your attitude to life.
I could not agree more.
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Dan Lucas wrote: Orrin Cummins wrote: Employers also want to see signs that you "play well" within the existing system. Large firms do not want the "brilliant maverick" type, or people who think they are. They look for employees who will provide a minimum level of competence, who will work well with other employees and who won't foment dissent and revolution. In other words, mindless drones? To an extent, yes. Managers want people to think and to be competent within a fairly tightly defined range. They do not want people who propose goals and processes that are significantly different to the existing aims and methods. There's a reason why startups and skunkworks exist: radical innovation is hard to nurture and bring to fruit in large organisations. I suspect that it's mostly the people who get fed up of restrictions in giant firms that eject, take the innovation with them and create startups. Naturally, different people have different opinions, but I would go as far as to say that this is consensus thought rather than a controversial viewpoint. So to get back to our original poster, if he wishes to succeed in a large corporation, a degree would help a great deal. If he can find other ways (alternative signals) to convince future employers and clients of his credibility then that's fine, of course. But it's going to be a tough row to hoe.
I agree with everything you've said and I'd wager that is one of the biggest reasons why people love freelance translating so much. I don't think the profession of translating attracts a whole lot of people who would be happy working in an Office Space type of environment.
But believe me, you don't need a degree to make money in freelance translation. You need a good understanding of the industry as it exists in the real world, and you need very strong writing skills in your target language(s) and very strong reading comprehension skills in your source language(s). Unfortunately these aren't things that you generally acquire in college.
Translating is like playing a musical instrument. It's not something you can fake. It's not like some fields where you can say, "Oh, well I have an MBA from Harvard, so I'm gonna start out at like 100k a year even though I don't know shit about my job." You could have a Ph.D. in your source language, you could have a Ph.D. in your area of specialization, and still not be a good translator. Some people have the knack and some people don't. But the people that don't, it is obvious.
It's like Lilian said above:
When looking for good translators and interpreters--the employers or agencies don't pay that much attention to your education or any certificates but rather the real language skills. If you are fully bilingual --you could care lees about your degrees, although it is good to have some type of a degree, at least, as well, which, however, won't help you much, if you don't know two languages well enough to be a translator. The most important thing is to work on your language--perhaps move to France for a few years.
Now don't get me wrong, it can be hard to get any decent jobs when you start out with no degrees AND no experience. But that shouldn't be the sole reason you pursue higher education. Don't let the educational system and its overpriced universities convince you that their way is the only way. It is just one path of many - great for some people, not so great for others.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:18
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Orrin Cummins wrote:
But believe me, you don't need a degree to make money in freelance translation.
I agree with you, though that's based on observation rather than on first-hand experience.
I agree that a degree in and of itself is not enough. Some skills you cannot easily acquire simply by attending college.
In a third blow to my reputation for nit-picking argument, I agree that many university courses are over-priced for the skills they offer.
However, if the chap who started the thread has the requisite $50k and wants to spend it on a course in History then I think on balance he's better off with a degree rather than without one.
Personally I would have choosen a course with more commercial overtones, taught at a college that charged less wince-inducing fees, but it's his life. And it's a bit late for him to be thinking of backing out.
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RowanF
United States
Local time: 22:18
French to English
TOPIC STARTER | But I don't need to be enthused | Jun 15, 2014 |
Neil Coffey wrote: RowanF wrote:
However, two years into it, I'm extremely frustrated. About a fourth of your classes are "general" classes that you are forced to take, which basically translates to wasted time. Another third are "major" classes. I chose history as my major because that's what interests me, but I have yet to have someone explain to me why paying thousands of dollars a quarter for a book and a teacher to stand in a lecture hall and basically read me the book is more effective than me sitting at home reading the book for the say $20 I spent for the book.
Firstly, I think your friend is right -- it's hugely difficult to get into translation at any significant level if you don't have a degree. There are other careers where you can start with virtually no formal qualifications provided that you can demonstrate aptitude. Nowadays, that sounds hugely difficult with translation unless you have a means of bypassing the usual recruitment/client negotiation stages. Now, regarding your rant -- with the proviso that I'm from the UK and things may be different in the US -- it sounds to me that the problem may be with your specific college rather than the "system" per se. A *good *lecture is not simply a set of passages reproduced from a book. The purpose of the lecture is to enthuse you and give you an expert's particular perspective and insight into the topic and thereby kick off your reflection or guide your reading on that topic. (Incidentally, if the US system is like the UK, the lecturer is likely to be setting the exam questions on their topic, so it's also your chance to detect what are their particular bugbears/obsessions that are likely to feed into their choice of exam questions...) If you're supposed to be studying a French degree and only 1/3 of your course is actually devoted to French, have you looked round at other institutions to see if they have better courses? I think a degree is the right way forward if you want to be a translator, but it sounds like you're getting a bum deal at your current college -- perhaps the best course of action would be to consider switching to another institution? I assume you have tutors that you can speak to about this as well and see what they think.
I don't think it's just my institution. It's a major public university in California, part of a system of 9 other universities. I honestly don't see the value of a lecturer. Okay, so it is supposed to give an expert's particular viewpoint on the reading. But wait a second, the book itself is already written by an expert. Is there a two-expert minimum requirement to learn anything?? I don't need a lecturer to enthuse me; I've already chosen History as a major which is probably less than ideal in terms of marketability because that's what enthuses me already. I don't need someone else to enthuse me! That's what I hate about the whole system, it seems to be designed for people who don't really want to learn and need to be tricked into it, but it just gets in my way.
| | | | | Re: evaluated one way even if you do well in another | Jun 15, 2014 |
For the rest of your life, people will be presenting you with structures you will have to work within and thrive within. Understanding these structures will help you work within them, but generally speaking you won't be able to easily escape them or define those terms yourself (perhaps some freelancers can, but there are also risks and costs to this approach ...).
Also, in the workplace, they will often come up with arbitrary metrics which will seem silly, but unless you have a bet... See more For the rest of your life, people will be presenting you with structures you will have to work within and thrive within. Understanding these structures will help you work within them, but generally speaking you won't be able to easily escape them or define those terms yourself (perhaps some freelancers can, but there are also risks and costs to this approach ...).
Also, in the workplace, they will often come up with arbitrary metrics which will seem silly, but unless you have a better idea and want to help them implement it, then best just to leave it as "huh, it's hard to devise good evaluation systems". Teachers do ask poor questions. Teachers are subjective. So are managers. Etc. But they can only do what they can do, and if you are not understanding of this if/when you discuss your concerns with them then they may not be eo interested in hearing your perspective on the matter.
I think many places would like mindless drones for many tasks, but this is as a preference related to people who don't do their job or screw things up all the time. I doubt many managers would be sad to find themselves with a person who can both a) do the job and b) provide constructive feedback and opinions at the level of specific projects and the organization as a whole. If you are good at b), then there is a higher chance that you will be able to set up those structures in ways which feel more natural to you, provided you can build consensus with colleagues on the matter ▲ Collapse
| | | | RowanF
United States
Local time: 22:18
French to English
TOPIC STARTER | But it's not that | Jun 15, 2014 |
njweatherdon wrote:
Also, in the workplace, they will often come up with arbitrary metrics which will seem silly, but unless you have a better idea and want to help them implement it, then best just to leave it as "huh, it's hard to devise good evaluation systems". Teachers do ask poor questions. Teachers are subjective. So are managers. Etc. But they can only do what they can do, and if you are not understanding of this if/when you discuss your concerns with them then they may not be eo interested in hearing your perspective on the matter.
The thing is, I do have better ideas, but the whole university system isn't going to change just for one disgruntled student. I don't have a problem with individual teacher performance, I have a problem with the whole structure of everything. This effect is probably less serious for math and science majors, but for me, you never stay in one spot for long enough to actually have real knowledge about something. Two and a half months of The Nude in the Western Tradition, then two and a half months of Music of Latin America. Two and a half months in The Modern Middle East (I mean seriously, I'm supposed to aquire some kind of real understanding of that topic in just three months?) I got a B in that class, but definitely no semblance of a coherent understanding of the geopolitics of the Middle East.
In the end, it all just amounts to seperate 3 month periods of cramming, and then you procede to forget it all in the next 3 month period. And besides, you aren't even graded on the knowledge you acquire. You're graded on homework, did you do everything just how we told you to do it, even if your own system could have worked better? You're graded on class participation, did you try to be part of the group? This all leads me to conclude that college isn't about learning about the world and it's definitely not about acquiring an applicable skillset; it's to test you to see if you aren't braindead and to see if you're able to meet basic deadlines on a regular basic and to mindlessly perform tasks assigned from above without questionning anything. I mean, why couldn't just high school have served this function? That's why I'm frustrated. That's why I want to know if there's another way to get into this industry.
[Edited at 2014-06-15 13:19 GMT]
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Orrin Cummins wrote: Dan Lucas wrote:
Employers also want to see signs that you "play well" within the existing system. Large firms do not want the "brilliant maverick" type, or people who think they are. They look for employees who will provide a minimum level of competence, who will work well with other employees and who won't foment dissent and revolution.
In other words, mindless drones?
Fortunately that kind of attitude does not happen in translation, since, often, the employees have no idea what the translators are doing--due to the lack of sufficient language skills on their part. It does not happen in freelance translation at all, unless you let someone treat you like a zombie.
It is true about many other work places, though, unfortunately--to the degree you let them treat you this way.
Other than that--it's not "what the managers want"--it is what is required to translate accurately, so that planes would not be falling due to wrongly translated manuals, or even space-ships.
It is what you know, and have to do.
And let me clarify something else--of course get a degree--if not from your current school--find another, or even online. School--especially at the university level is really great, if you find the right places.
[Edited at 2014-06-15 09:41 GMT]
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RowanF
United States
Local time: 22:18
French to English
TOPIC STARTER | But it's not that | Jun 15, 2014 |
double post
[Edited at 2014-06-15 13:25 GMT]
| | | | Sheila Wilson
Spain
Local time: 06:18
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
| As you so rightly say, "It's his [the OP's] life" | Jun 15, 2014 |
Dan Lucas wrote:
However, if the chap who started the thread has the requisite $50k and wants to spend it on a course in History then I think on balance he's better off with a degree rather than without one.
Personally I would have choosen a course with more commercial overtones, taught at a college that charged less wince-inducing fees, but it's his life. And it's a bit late for him to be thinking of backing out.
But is it about money? Or is it about wasting one or more years of your life, at a time when you should be feeling really positive? Or is it about avoiding total disillusionment which can start a downward spiral into dissatisfaction with everything society stands for and your place in it?
Far be it for me to decide for him, but the OP sounds as though he's passed the point where he can still have a positive attitude to life if he doesn't make a change. It may be the riskier short-term solution to his problem, but it may be the one that turns out better in the long term. I agree with whoever who said that studying something, anything, in a country where your source language is spoken is a great idea if you seriously want to become a translator.
| | | | | Transfer then! | Jun 15, 2014 |
I think those who have completed studies will continue to argue the value of their degrees, and after investing 2 years in a degree, you're half way there so why not just finish it?
A quick search found that the UC complex also has translation majors available. I'm sure its not too late to apply for a transfer into a more relevant cour... See more I think those who have completed studies will continue to argue the value of their degrees, and after investing 2 years in a degree, you're half way there so why not just finish it?
A quick search found that the UC complex also has translation majors available. I'm sure its not too late to apply for a transfer into a more relevant course such as this: http://extension.ucsd.edu/programs/index.cfm?vAction=certDetail&vCertificateID=83&vStudyAreaID=11
While you're studying, or on a sabbatical to decide what to do, I'd recommend you get started on translation as soon as you can. I'd mentioned earlier that this is an industry that doesn't have to be full-time. I say get started straight away because most freelance translators don't last more than 2 years (read: 'How to Succeed as a Freelance Translator' Corinne McKay). You may find that to last in this industry requires a lot more gumption than what is required of an undergraduate degree. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:18
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| College can be extremely challenging | Jun 15, 2014 |
Sheila Wilson wrote:
But is it about money? Or is it about wasting one or more years of your life, at a time when you should be feeling really positive?
I can say with certainty that not everybody feels really positive while they're actually at college. All the way through until the fourth year I found the course a tremendous effort. There is a significant element of rote memorisation involved in mastering Japanese orthography that just cannot be avoided. I hated the tedium of it.
With no parental support I was always short of money so I had to work to make ends meet which meant in turn that I was also short of time. I stuck it out and eventually made it through. Sure I knew other people who tackled less challenging courses and had more time and money to spare, but I don't think my experience was that unusual. Sometimes college is just hard.
With that possibility in mind, there's no guarantee that the original poster's problems will be solved by moving to a different course or even by beginning a career. To be blunt, if he had done his homework he should not have been surprised by what he has found at college. There are bazillions of resources in this internet age that would have given him a flavour for university life, especially pedagogical aspects such as the requirement to study subjects outside his major.
The probing question that the OP should be asking himself is "If I quit now and start work, or transfer to another college, will I just repeat the same pattern and find myself bored in 12 months time? Do I just have a problem getting through work that I find tedious?"
If that's his problem, there's no shame in it. I have always had problems with boring work, but I'm aware of that tendency and have ways of dealing with it. Maybe the OP has a similar problem but doesn't yet understand himself well enough to know that?
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 13:18
Chinese to English
| Universities don't spoonfeed | Jun 16, 2014 |
RowanF wrote:
Two and a half months in The Modern Middle East (I mean seriously, I'm supposed to aquire some kind of real understanding of that topic in just three months?) I got a B in that class, but definitely no semblance of a coherent understanding of the geopolitics of the Middle East.
You may be on the wrong course, or you may just not be a good fit with the UC system or university in general. But I think what you said there illustrates a bit of a wrong idea about how to approach university. A university course these days isn't really meant to give you a general understanding of a major topic. You're meant to get that yourself by reading the newspaper and the zillion books out there on the subject. A university course shows you how to go beyond that generalist understanding by introducing some more specialist concepts and approaches.
Basically, university isn't school, and that's doubly true of a big public university. You have to treat it like a resource. They have a library at your disposal: go and read the books in it that interest you. They have lecturers at your disposal: go and listen to the ones that interest you. They offer commentary on your writing: take the comments and improve your writing.
A lot of the language used about universities is very misleading, I think. Universities and economists love to talk about how they "serve" their students. But that's not the case. it's not a service like a hairdressers. Really, the tuition you pay is like buying a plot of land in a gold rush. You pay your tuition, you get given your plot of land - access to the most valuable commodity in the world: brilliant people. Then you have to mine it. You have to dig through the muck and get the gold. In the course of which, they'll probably give you a degree. If they don't it's not the end of the world - plenty of people learn a lot from university without ever graduating.
| | | | RowanF
United States
Local time: 22:18
French to English
TOPIC STARTER | Student visas | Jun 16, 2014 |
Phil Hand wrote:
You may be on the wrong course, or you may just not be a good fit with the UC system or university in general. But I think what you said there illustrates a bit of a wrong idea about how to approach university. A university course these days isn't really meant to give you a general understanding of a major topic. You're meant to get that yourself by reading the newspaper and the zillion books out there on the subject. A university course shows you how to go beyond that generalist understanding by introducing some more specialist concepts and approaches.
Basically, university isn't school, and that's doubly true of a big public university. You have to treat it like a resource. They have a library at your disposal: go and read the books in it that interest you. They have lecturers at your disposal: go and listen to the ones that interest you. They offer commentary on your writing: take the comments and improve your writing.
I don't think I've learned any specialist concepts or approaches that I couldn't have learned through reading in my free time. Maybe you'll say I haven't dug enough, but I shouldn't have to, getting a degree shouldn't be just a meaningless 4-year task that buys you into the job market and that only some people fully exploit. Perhaps if I was majoring in a hard science that would be different of course. As for the library, etc, I'd rather just go to my local public library without paying ridiculous sums.
I think the other poster was right though, I should have known more about what I was getting into before starting, and that's my fault. Now I'm just asking myself if it's worth prolonging my mistake another two years or cutting it off. Reading your posts I'm leaning towards prolonging it, especially since it's difficult to live in France, Belgium, or Switzerland without being a student right now.
[Edited at 2014-06-16 12:37 GMT]
| | | | Woodstock (X)
Germany
Local time: 07:18
German to English
+ ...
| The elephant in the room | Jun 16, 2014 |
is the US education system. Most of the responses in this thread seem to be by translators who were not educated in the US. I remember the UC system when it was still a top-notch, prestigious group of institutions of higher learning where you were taught how to think and creative approaches were encouraged (in the liberal arts, at least). In fact, I went to UC Berkeley for a few terms back in the day, when an academic quarter cost about $200 for California residents. It was a vibrant and exciti... See more is the US education system. Most of the responses in this thread seem to be by translators who were not educated in the US. I remember the UC system when it was still a top-notch, prestigious group of institutions of higher learning where you were taught how to think and creative approaches were encouraged (in the liberal arts, at least). In fact, I went to UC Berkeley for a few terms back in the day, when an academic quarter cost about $200 for California residents. It was a vibrant and exciting experience. (For various reasons I ended up getting my degree elsewhere.) Unfortunately, that has changed a lot in the 35 or so years since I went there, and many, many universities and colleges started being run like for-profit corporations, in part because they had/have expensive sports teams to support (my personal beef*), and the fees started rising to the current astronomical levels - and who knows where they might end? Now many graduates are facing a challenging job market with huge amounts of student loan debt weighing them down, unless their parents have or had the means to pay the outlandish prices outright. I don't know what the curriculae of those colleges/universities look like these days, but I can make an educated guess based on the changes in American society and politics over the last few decades, which I have followed closely.
Here is an example of the ridiculous cost of education in the US these days: a couple of years ago I inquired at University of Southern California (USC), which has a very good reputation (or did, at least) about the cost of an online MA degree - a one-year course - in TESL/TEFL out of curiosity. The price was not mentioned in the ad, of course. An eager recruiter called me to tout the program (American salesmanship!). When I asked for the cost I was told it was a measly $32,000!!! Yikes. My response was that the price was absolutely absurd and unsupportable. How much would you have to earn as an English teacher to cover that horrendous cost? Or work until you are 90, at least. Just wow.
My recommendation in a nutshell: to Rowan I would recommend applying to a French university or at least spending your junior year abroad, which is where a US student usually is after 2 years, and then stay in Europe to study and become immersed in the culture and practical applications of your chosen source language. You can usually get a part-time or temporary full-time job on a student visa, if necessary. To me that is the only really meaningful way for someone in your age group to learn a language they haven't grown up with (i.e. if they weren't raised in a genuinely bilingual or multilingual family). Others may have had different experiences, of course.
Whichever path you choose to follow, RowanF, I wish you well!
Edited to add:
*For those of you not familiar with American college football, for example, it is a huge business, so recruiting talented players (on so-called athletic scholarships) and star coaches is a costly must to stay competitive:
http://money.cnn.com/2010/12/29/news/companies/college_football_dollars/ That all adds to the cost burden that must be borne by the students - a terrible development, in my opinion.
[Edited at 2014-06-16 11:36 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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