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Can browsing be considered as downloading
Thread poster: xxxBrandis
xxxBrandis
Local time: 21:36
English to German
+ ...
Dec 12, 2005

This is a big trouble with the ISPs generally only few differentiate between traffic volumes and downloads. For example, I am a tourist in a new city and would like to take a city tour on a bus by buying a packaged tour. On the ride I may see many things ads, movie or other landscapes or even interesting shopping centres etc., through my centre or by getting out at certain points on the route. It is for me browsing as I am not buying or doing anything similar ( which is the actual download). One friend of mine has received an invoice from his ISP over 250 Euro,-, upon serious arguments with the ISP, it comes out that the ISP is charging for the packaged tour in my example and ocnsidering it as download. According to him - some information has to be loaded into your browser, and cleared and some other (site) information has to be loaded into the browser so that the internet client can see it, whether the client makes use of the information or not or downloads physical (movies, programs etc., ) isirrelevant. All counts under downloading. Now we all are bit confused. According to the analogy above, one should differntiate between traffic and download, where as the traffic is not charged or charged lesser amount, keeping in view that the client may not utilize all the information or any information at all from all the sites he has visited. Another example is, I get a lots of post, ad material in my house post, and whenever I find time, I manage reading it but I am not downloading anything, I would be doing this, when I accept one of such offers and actually buy a product or a service. Can someone help me clear up this understanding. All help is urgently much appreciated. Brandis

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Daniel Ehret  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 21:36
French to Hungarian
+ ...
Bandwidth Dec 12, 2005

Hi Brandis,

I don't know what kind of contract you have (or your friend has) with the ISP, or what is the usual in Germany, but here in Hungary, you pay after the traffic, not after the download, and I think this is right this way, since even when you are not downloading anything, you are still using the network and the ISP's bandwidth.
Anyway, it's up to the contract with the ISP...


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xxxMarc P  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:36
German to English
+ ...
Can browsing be considered as downloading Dec 12, 2005

Brandis wrote:

According to the analogy above, one should differntiate between traffic and download, where as the traffic is not charged or charged lesser amount, keeping in view that the client may not utilize all the information or any information at all from all the sites he has visited.


This is your analogy, not the ISP's. The ISP charges for bandwidth, not for information. I presume that there is no difference in bandwidth load between "browsing" and "downloading": the difference is just between the information remaining in the user's RAM or being saved to hard drive, but in either case it has to be delivered to the user, surely? (Correct me if I'm wrong on this - you're the IT expert, not me. )

Your analogy would be like suggesting that the postal service should charge (the sender) not by the weight of a delivery's contents, but according to its usefulness or what the user does with it.

Marc


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 21:36
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
But the package said download Dec 12, 2005

Daniel Ehret wrote:

Hi Brandis,

I don't know what kind of contract you have (or your friend has) with the ISP, or what is the usual in Germany, but here in Hungary, you pay after the traffic, not after the download, and I think this is right this way, since even when you are not downloading anything, you are still using the network and the ISP's bandwidth.
Anyway, it's up to the contract with the ISP...
and not traffic, trafiic would be the base fare I am paying for the bus-ride I would understand. The offer said 10 GB download volume is free on the package, which would mean everything else not included and not mentioned will be charged, which is in this case the traffic part that is not mentioned in the package. The package 512 Kb / Sec DSL line at 10 GB download free. Should I now consider the traffic (for example the online games, one could generate a 1GB or more traffic overnight) Brandis

[Edited at 2005-12-12 08:01]


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PAS  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:36
English to Polish
+ ...
Download/ traffic Dec 12, 2005

The Polish telecom company offers fast internet service. Each package comes with an X GB limit (depending on the bandwidth you buy).
The term "download" is probably used to make life simpler for those non-computer savvy, but on the web site the company shows examples of what your limit will get you. One of these examples is "listening to internet radio x hours a week" - surely a good example of "using the internet but not downloading anything".

My (lengthy) point is that the computer actually does download everything you open. It's there on your hard drive in the Temporay Internet Files folder. All the little gifs and jpegs, all the html text - everything.
So there is no difference whether you download a PDF or an mp3 file, or whether you're just surfing. The kilobytes have been delivered using your ISP.

Pawel Skalinski


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 21:36
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Browsing is downloading, yes Dec 12, 2005

Brandis wrote:
One friend of mine has received an invoice from his ISP over 250 Euro,-, upon serious arguments with the ISP, it comes out that the ISP is charging for...


Your analogy is false. Before the user can see anything, he has to download it first. Browsing without downloading is impossible.

I am surprised, however, that there was no cap on the downloading. Ideally, there should be some sort of upper limit which is not exceeded without the client's permission.

You can reduce your bandwidth bill by reducing the number of pictures or large files on your web site's front pages.


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Jabberwock  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 21:36
Member (2004)
English to Polish
They probably mean download SIDE... Dec 12, 2005

That is, they count toward the limit every byte you have received (saved or not), but not what you have sent. This is still a little bit different than the total bandwidth usage, which would include both.

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xxxBrandis
Local time: 21:36
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
That strikes me Dec 12, 2005

Jabberwock wrote:

That is, they count toward the limit every byte you have received (saved or not), but not what you have sent. This is still a little bit different than the total bandwidth usage, which would include both.
they have given us a 2048 download and 512 upload limit. Would it make a difference while calculating. Brandis


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Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 22:36
Member (2005)
English to Russian
+ ...
Browsing, uploading and downloading Dec 12, 2005

Agree with PAS about browsing - it's downloading automatically done for you by your browser. Everyone needs to be aware of this if they know there might be a limit imposed on weekly traffic or whatever.

Uploading and downloading limits are usually different because most people need to download a lot and upload just a little bit. If all you do is browse, your upload traffic will be tiny compared with your download traffic. If you need to send lots of e-mail with heavy attachments or maybe use an online location for storage purposes, your upload limit will fill up a lot faster.

HTH


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 21:36
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Are you talking about speed or amount? Dec 12, 2005

Brandis wrote:
They have given us a 2048 download and 512 upload limit.


The numbers you mention sound more like speed limits than amount limits. Both are commonly known as "bandwidth", so it can be confusing.


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PAS  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:36
English to Polish
+ ...
Downloading, uploading and connection speed (bandwidth) Dec 12, 2005

Brandis wrote:
they have given us a 2048 download and 512 upload limit. Would it make a difference while calculating.


You are referring to the "speed" of your connection, not volume limits. This is not to be confused with volume of data (see below).

A 2048 download speed (2MB) means your connection is capable (theoretically, at least ) of downloading (saving on your hard drive, in other words) ca. 2 MB of data each second.
If you have a 20 MB file to download, it should take about 10 seconds - pretty fast, by the way.

Uploading is when you want to, e.g. put something on an FTP server (a sort of holding place for large files which may be awkward to send by e-mail). When you are sending something out from your computer, you will be able to do it at 512 kb per second - the same 20 MB file should take ca. 40 seconds to upload. This also applies to e-mails you send.

Now, the volume limit is the actual quantity of data you can upload (send) or download (receive) each month. If you have a limit of e.g. 10 GB per month, you can download and/ or upload a total of 500 such 20 MB files each month.

What happens after that limit is exceeded is up to your ISP. In Poland you can continue to use the connection, but the connection speed falls to 32 kb/s (the equivalent of an old telephone modem).

If this is too simple, too complicated or too drawn out - forgive me. I'm only trying to help.

P.A.S.


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 21:36
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
The package offer was Dec 12, 2005

Samuel Murray wrote:

Brandis wrote:
They have given us a 2048 download and 512 upload limit.


The numbers you mention sound more like speed limits than amount limits. Both are commonly known as "bandwidth", so it can be confusing.
512 kb / sec upload, 2048 kb / sec download, 10 GB charge free download (there was no mention of browsing being charged) we had actually downloaded only 8 GB, ie., in form of documents, programs and other files etc., and they charged us in addition to the base price €250,-. Now we are in a fix, because we cannot getout of this contract for atleast min 3 months and we cannot use that expensive line. That is the whole story. Brandis


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Piotr Sawiec  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:36
English to Polish
+ ...
Measure download and upload Dec 12, 2005

Hi,
frankly, the price seems quite high, 250 Euro for internet connection. On the other hand, it seems rather fast.
It was written before that downloading is everything that gets to your computer. It could be quite substantial amount, and you can measure it easily. I use a freeware NetMeter:

http://readerror.gmxhome.de/

it will give you many data, like weekly or monthly totals. You will be aware how much data you really download even by normal browsing.

Piotr


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 21:36
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Dec 12, 2005

Piotr Sawiec wrote:

Hi,
frankly, the price seems quite high, 250 Euro for internet connection. On the other hand, it seems rather fast.
It was written before that downloading is everything that gets to your computer. It could be quite substantial amount, and you can measure it easily. I use a freeware NetMeter:

http://readerror.gmxhome.de/

it will give you many data, like weekly or monthly totals. You will be aware how much data you really download even by normal browsing.

Piotr
That is a very interesting tool. I hope next time we don´t have to burn so much. Especially the options, totals are just what we can currently use. You can limit the traffic reading too all networking connections or optionally only to the internet line as well, clear demarcation. Thank you once again. Best regards, Brandis


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Daniele Martoglio  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:36
Polish to Italian
+ ...
2048 are kbps = KBITs not KBYTEs Dec 13, 2005

PAS wrote:

A 2048 download speed (2MB) means your connection is capable (theoretically, at least ) of downloading (saving on your hard drive, in other words) ca. 2 MB of data each second.
If you have a 20 MB file to download, it should take about 10 seconds - pretty fast, by the way.

P.A.S.


2048 are kbps = kilobit per second
but: 1 byte= 8 bit (at least because in the communication are necessary some extra bits for syncronization)

so, 2048 kbps = 128 KBYTE per second.

it means that 1M of data can be dowloaded in 8 seconds.

------------------------------------ o O o ------------------------------------

Brandis wrote:

512 kb / sec upload, 2048 kb / sec download, 10 GB charge free download (there was no mention of browsing being charged) we had actually downloaded only 8 GB, ie., in form of documents, programs and other files etc.,

Brandis


Brandis, to USE the whole 10 GB included in packet you must surf 80'000 seconds, taking data at the maximums speed. It's 22 hours, not so much, but HOW MANY SERVER can really push to you 2048 kbps?

You wrote that u "downloaded" olny 8 GB. It means that ONLY this operation used at least 18 hours.

Looking at point of view of your ISP all bytes send to you are "download" as the others said. I suppose that not more then 10% normal traffic are downloads CLEARLY SAVED AS FILES by the user, because the most of time we SEARCH a just sometimes we FIND. (this 10% is just a imagined figura, but may be not so far from reality) So i can imagine that u really downloaded 80 GB. It need AT LEAST 176 hours. So nearly 8h/day mon-fr (i suppose that the limit is a monthly limit). It's terrible HUGE time on internet.

Anyway, in the bill it's SURELY written how much GB over quote you used. So, how much?
And compare it wich your NORMAL price for your 10 GB. If u downloaded 8 times more, and u pay 8 times more, it's not so strange..

Daniele


[Edited at 2005-12-13 08:52]


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