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Peer comments - more choices may help
Thread poster: RHELLER
RHELLER
United States
Local time: 15:32
French to English
+ ...
May 17, 2003

Dear Colleagues:



I have just posted something similar in the French forum. Some \"neutral\" and \"disagree\" comments make proziens very upset.



I would like to propose a change in the KudoZ comment section.



Personally, I find that \"neutral\" and \"disagree\" are too vague.

I think it would be more constructive to give more detailed comment.

It might also help everyone to understand why you disagree.



For example, a system with 4 grades:



1 - opposite meaning; does not translate the meaning well

2 - problem with grammar or syntax

3 - needs references; one good response among many (not the best)

4 - good - agree



Instead of responding with neutral, disagree, or agree -

we could give a 1,2,3 or 4.



What do you think?



Thanks,

Rita


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Uldis Liepkalns  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 00:32
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
Definitely not a bad suggestion May 17, 2003

In my opinion...



Uldis



Quote:


On 2003-05-17 01:42, RHELLER wrote:

Dear Colleagues:



I have just posted something similar in the French forum. Some \"neutral\" and \"disagree\" comments make proziens very upset.



I would like to propose a change in the KudoZ comment section.



Personally, I find that \"neutral\" and \"disagree\" are too vague.

I think it would be more constructive to give more detailed comment.

It might also help everyone to understand why you disagree.



For example, a system with 4 grades:



1 - opposite meaning; does not translate the meaning well

2 - problem with grammar or syntax

3 - needs references; one good response among many (not the best)

4 - good - agree



Instead of responding with neutral, disagree, or agree -

we could give a 1,2,3 or 4.



What do you think?



Thanks,

Rita






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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 20:32
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
Add a short comment to the available three main choices May 17, 2003

Quote:


2003-05-17 01:42 RHELLER wrote:

...snip...



Personally, I find that \"neutral\" and \"disagree\" are too vague.



...snip...







You can already add a short comment to the current 3 choices available, to explain the reason for your neutral or disagree, or even to add something to an otherwise good answer.



In my opinion, having too many pre-defined choices could be confusing and difficult to use.



Gianfranco





[ 2003-05-17 12:16]

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Claudia Iglesias  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 19:32
Member (2002)
Spanish to French
+ ...
The reason for Rita's suggestion May 17, 2003

When I first saw Rita\'s suggestion it seemed to me that it wouldn\'t change that much, as we already have space enough to justify our comments or peer greading, but the reason for her suggestion is to avoid the words \"disagree\" (particularly) and neutral. Many people can\'t suffer to get one and it\'s the beginning for personal wars.

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RHELLER
United States
Local time: 15:32
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Claudia May 17, 2003

The same discussion is going on in the French forum -



http://www.proz.com/?sp=bb/viewtopic&topic_id=11108&forum_id=25



Claudia is right to bring up the \"personal attack\" aspect. Some people simply can\'t handle \"disagree\".



A numbered system will always be more objectively viewed by the one who is being criticized. Often no reasoning is given for a \"disagree\" which may lead to feeling as though one is being arbitrarily attacked.





It will not take up more room and would make it easier, not harder, to grade answers.



Those who compose surveys know that people are much more willing to check off a number than write a sentence.



Just a suggestion..

Have a good weekend,

Rita
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xxxCHENOUMI  Identity Verified
English to French
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Indeed. May 17, 2003

Quote:
Many people can\'t suffer to get one and it\'s the beginning for personal wars.




Many reasonable people would find that attributing an unjustified \"disagree\" just for the sake of it, and without reasonable justification totally unacceptable.



Quote:
Claudia is right to bring up the \"personal attack\" aspect. Some people simply can\'t handle \"disagree\"




It is unfortunate that the authors of pointed and arrogant \"disagree\" are often left off the hook by the same people who are prone to condemn reaction of the recipients.



Politeness is not a one-way street. And it would be wise for people not to judge and condemn when they don\'t know the dynamics of a relationship between two individuals, when they are unaware of all details, and when previous skirmishes are untold.





To get back to the subject of the day, the current sistem is fine. I\'ve seen others convey their disagreement in such a stylish manner that it doesn\'t feel like a \"personal attack\" or a negative input at all. Their softened and skillfully expressed view is not an outburst of antagonism.

(I am not referring to the circumstances of the thread you have indicated), but in general.



On the other hand, \"Neutral\" peer-gradings are often a way for colleagues to express their disagreement and a different approach. Some have done it remarkably well, and I salute them.



Sans rancune.





















[ This Message was edited by:on2003-05-18 04:30]


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Rick Henry  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 16:32
Italian to English
+ ...
Not sure about neutral, but... May 17, 2003

for disagrees, I think a comment/note is required. I agree three choices are enough, given you can add comments to your grade.



R.

==

Quote:


On 2003-05-17 11:55, gianfranco wrote:

You can already add a short comment to the current 3 choices available, to explain the reason for your neutral or disagree, or even to add something to an otherwise good answer.



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Uldis Liepkalns  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 00:32
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
This is two-way road May 17, 2003

I have partnership/business relations with many answerers, therefore I usually my \"disagree\", instead of the red \"DISAGREE\", express as \"neutral\".

OTOH, some \"disagrees\" I have received, were formulated in suchlike way: \"your English is very poor, if I had time, I would make a much better suggestion\".

Needless to say, though I have no relations with this person, but I remember him/her not kindly- the more so the sentence which asker asked to translate was nightmare in the source language, to begin with.





_________________

comma added

[ This Message was edited by: uldis on 2003-05-17 22:57]


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Albina  Identity Verified
English to Albanian
+ ...
Agree with Rita May 18, 2003

Excellent proposal. As it is now, the Disagree choice is often abused by a few colleagues. In one of my SC, I have seen members give a Disagree just because they dislike the person, even though the answer is often perfect!!! Rita\'s proposal of having four choices in this area might help change this situation and leave no more room for misuse.

Wishing everyone a lovely weekend.



________________________________



1 - opposite meaning; does not translate the meaning well

2 - problem with grammar or syntax

3 - needs references; one good response among many (not the best)

4 - good - agree





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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:32
English to German
+ ...
Peer-grading should be independent May 18, 2003

Hi uldis,

Quote:


I have partnership/business relations with many answerers, therefore I usually my \"disagree\", instead of the red \"DISAGREE\", express as \"neutral\".

:57]



Peer-grading should be independent of any relationship with the answerer (regardless whether that\'s personal, business or both). IOW: if you disagree, use a \"disagree\", and provide a courteous explanation.



Best, Ralf

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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 17:32
SITE FOUNDER
Using numbers proved *more* disagreeable (but thanks for the suggestion!) May 18, 2003

We used to use a numeric form of peer review. It was very unpopular. Seems people can suffer a \"disagree\" better than a \"1\".



However, I understand the sentiment of your proposal. Some others have suggested removing \"disagrees\" altogether. It is under consideration (but not high on the list of priorities.)



Thanks for your suggestion!


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Steffen Walter  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:32
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
But where do we go from here, Henry? May 18, 2003

Hi Henry,

Commenting on the possibility of abolishing/removing \"disagrees\":





However, I understand the sentiment of your proposal. Some others have suggested removing \"disagrees\" altogether. It is under consideration (but not high on the list of priorities.)





What alternative would you have in mind to replace \"disagrees\" once they have been \"removed\"? Actually, a courteous, qualified and well-founded \"disagree\" can be of great help for the asker. Also, I think that a numbered system (without any verbal comment??) won\'t change much but would even deprive us from lively, often extremely valuable, discussions ensuing after suggestion of answers.



Suggestion: Change the \"disagree\" colour from red to something less obtrusive (simply black?) - many people tend to go by visual impression first and may feel attacked by the red, not by the content shown behind the grade.



My 2 cents,

Steffen


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Uldis Liepkalns  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 00:32
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
That's good idea May 18, 2003

Quote:


Suggestion: Change the \"disagree\" colour from red to something less obtrusive (simply black?) - many people tend to go by visual impression first and may feel attacked by the red, not by the content shown behind the grade.


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RHELLER
United States
Local time: 15:32
French to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Interesting debate! May 18, 2003

Thanks to everyone - this is an interesting debate.



I agree with Albina and with Steffen. I do believe that part of the grade is a \"popularity contest\". This reminds me of high school, which is unfortunate. (33 years later!)



My other comment concerns \"neutral\". I use it instead of \"disagree\" because it is less offensive BUT I really think it conveys nothing. The term \"neutral\" by definition does not take sides, so what is the purpose?



The asker needs to know what his peers think of the proposed answers so that he/she can make an \"educated\" decision. \"Neutral\" does not really help.



I have sometimes received 1 or 2 points instead of 4 points and still felt better than a \"disagree\". I realize it\'s not exactly the same.



Re: color RED

It does make the situation worse. Black numbers would be the most neutral way of listing choices.



Thanks,

Rita
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Giuliana Buscaglione  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 23:32
Member (2001)
German to Italian
+ ...
See a disagree positively May 19, 2003

Hi,



I agree with Steffen: a disagree can be a very useful mean and I add it should be seen positively.



A disagree without a comment (= reason why) has IMHO absolutely no meaning.



Perhaps, we should better define when a disagree should be used:



disagree = I am 100% sure it is wrong (or not suitable for the given context) because of reason X



neutral = I am not 100% sure because XY etc.



agree = I am sure it is correct or suitable for the context, with or without explanation.



A different colour for disagrees is only cosmetics, doesn\'t change the substance .



A well-put disagree forces indirectly an answerer to think (and double-check) twice before sending a proposal (nobody likes a disagree, but if we are wrong, we have to accept criticism.... and know in advance it might come).



What I can\'t understand is a disagree without comment, being 100% or without checking whether the proposed term alternatively suitable



Giuliana




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