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KudoZ experiment: Option to post 'reference information'
Thread poster: Enrique

Enrique
Local time: 02:55
SITE STAFF
Aug 4, 2008

The following new feature has been experimentally released: An option has been provided for KudoZ participants to submit "reference information" in connection with KudoZ questions.

It is anticipated that this option will be used by those who wish to provide information that is not in itself an answer, but which may be helpful to either the asker or other answerers. By providing a channel for this information, the new feature is expected to reduce the improper use of the answer and the ask-the-asker options.

The information submitted in this way will not be subject to consideration as "best" or "most helpful", and points will not be received.

Posts with "reference information" will be listed in the order posted, below all the answers.

To maintain integrity in the presentation of information, and time stamps, answers and informational posts will be mutually exclusive. In other words, a person who has posted an answer will not be able to post "reference info" in the same question (unless the answer is removed) and vice versa.

It will be possible to edit, append, hide and take other actions on reference posts, just as with answers. Peer comments will also be possible.

There will be a limit of one reference post per person per question. The length of the post will will also be restricted, if this proves necessary.

Your questions, suggestions and feedback will be appreciated.

As usual, thanks to our members who keep ProZ.com working.

Regards,
Enrique


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Enrique
Local time: 02:55
SITE STAFF
TOPIC STARTER
Answer to Jack Aug 4, 2008

Jack Doughty wrote:

What is the point of this new box that has just appeared on the KudoZ answer page? It appears to be a way of giving the asker useful information while at the same time disqualifying yourself from posting an answer. Why should anyone want to do this?


Hi Jack,

It is not uncommon for site users to have reference information they want to share without having a proper answer to the question.

Until now, those who have wanted to submit such information have been able to do so only using the answer and/or the ask-the-asker options to do so.

In order to provide a proper channel to this information, a new box has been added that lets you enter a comment without providing a proper answer. These reference information boxes will be "not for grading" but peer comments will still be possible on them.

Regards,
Enrique


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Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 00:55
German to English
Almost right Aug 4, 2008

Hi Enrique - I'm glad to see my proposal for "not-for-points answers" finally implemented - almost. It's great to be able to contribute to finding a good solution to a translation problem by providing, for instance, a good definition of the source term. So often, people will start suggesting translations before they even know what the term means. If the asker hasn't provided a good explanation, a member/user can help others from going down the wrong path with a good definition or a useful reference.

But like Jack, I don't see any purpose in disqualifying members from continuing to participate in solving the problem just because they've provided a useful reference.



[Edited at 2008-08-04 22:23]

[Edited at 2008-08-04 22:25]


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Nesrin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:55
English to Arabic
+ ...
Good addition, but... Aug 4, 2008

I believe it's a good addition, something many of us have talked about before.

I also agree with this restriction:

Enrique wrote:

To maintain integrity in the presentation of information, and time stamps,
(...) a person who has posted an answer will not be able to post "reference info" in the same question (unless the answer is removed) ...


but not this one:
... and vice versa.


Why not vice versa? A person who has submitted reference information may well find him-/herself wanting to propose an answer later. Since they're not getting points for the reference information anyway, this wouldn't affect either integrity or time stamps. I think this restriction may discourage people from submitting reference information, as they won't have the possibility to submit answers at a later time.

[Edited at 2008-08-04 22:27]


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Jack Doughty  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:55
Member (2000)
Russian to English
+ ...
"Ask the asker" Aug 4, 2008

This is a useful part of the question answering process and I think it is something that should be widened rather than restricted. Interesting discussions often develop under this heading, which may be outside the official restricted way of using this facility, but can be very helpful and informative and deserve to be encouraged.

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Ali Bayraktar  Identity Verified
Turkey
Member (2007)
English to Turkish
+ ...
Is it the thing that we really starve for? Aug 4, 2008

I understand the approach "to help the asker" however most of the participants in KudoZ, enter there in order to submit answer or if submitted then they provide agree-disagree and leave.

Considering the above mentioned principle (my point of view of course) and also considering the fact that the ask the asker function mostly used between the answerer and asker I can't really understand the mission of this function. why you just cancel the "ask the asker" option for those who already submitted their answers?

And one more point: what about the fact that somebody would copy&paste the reference as answer? Because as you told it couldn't be selected as most helpful answer so if the right answer would be one of those reference posts, the question would never be closed until somebody submits the right one.

May be I can't see it more widely or comprehensively but that's what I think.


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Enrique
Local time: 02:55
SITE STAFF
TOPIC STARTER
Answers and reference comments Aug 5, 2008

Nesrin wrote:

Why not vice versa? A person who has submitted reference information may well find him-/herself wanting to propose an answer later. Since they're not getting points for the reference information anyway, this wouldn't affect either integrity or time stamps. I think this restriction may discourage people from submitting reference information, as they won't have the possibility to submit answers at a later time.


Hi Nesrin,

The rationale for not allowing answers and "reference comments" was that users could use reference comments to present addicional information on an answer without modifying the time stamp accordingly. This would be unfair.

You could also do this by posting the reference comment first, then an answer, and then posting additional comments to the reference comment.

The basic idea is that you may have a proper answer or not. If you do, you should post a proper answer. if you don't and you have something to share anyway, then you may use a reference comment.

As the title of the thread suggests, this is an experimental feature, open to discussion and to changes suggested by usage.

Regards,
Enrique


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 01:55
SITE FOUNDER
I suggest removing the restriction Aug 5, 2008

Hi Enrique,

Based on the feedback, I suggest removing the "vice versa" restriction. If it is needed it can be activated later.

By the way, Kim does deserve some credit here. My recollection is that he was the first to suggest this, some years ago. (Thanks, Kim!)


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Nikki Graham  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:55
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
Cancelling "ask the asker" option if answer submitted Aug 5, 2008

M. Ali Bayraktar wrote:

why you just cancel the "ask the asker" option for those who already submitted their answers?



I think this is an excellent suggestion. Given that you receive an email if you have participated in a question by posting an answer or a comment in the "ask the asker box" EVERY TIME someone adds something to this "ask the asker box", it would be preferable (at least IMHO) if people who have already answered the question could add their further Google links to try to convince the answerer to choose their submission in their own post. I find it especially nauseating when people use this box to thank the asker for giving them the points.


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Nikki Graham  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:55
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
Question about KudoZ statistics Aug 5, 2008

I assume that this "reference information" post will not be included in our KudoZ answering statistics. Could someone please confirm?

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Enrique
Local time: 02:55
SITE STAFF
TOPIC STARTER
"Reference information" posts will not be included in the statistics Aug 5, 2008

Nikki Graham wrote:

I assume that this "reference information" post will not be included in our KudoZ answering statistics. Could someone please confirm?


Hi Nikki,

You are right, the "reference information" posts will not be included in the statistics.

Regards,
Enrique


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Enrique
Local time: 02:55
SITE STAFF
TOPIC STARTER
Restriction lifted Aug 5, 2008

Kim Metzger wrote:

Hi Enrique - I'm glad to see my proposal for "not-for-points answers" finally implemented - almost. It's great to be able to contribute to finding a good solution to a translation problem by providing, for instance, a good definition of the source term. So often, people will start suggesting translations before they even know what the term means. If the asker hasn't provided a good explanation, a member/user can help others from going down the wrong path with a good definition or a useful reference.

But like Jack, I don't see any purpose in disqualifying members from continuing to participate in solving the problem just because they've provided a useful reference.


Hi Kim, thanks for your feedback. The feature has been modified in such a way that you can now post an answer even if you posted a reference comment. The reverse restriction is still in place (you can't post a reference comment after posting an answer).

Regards,
Enrique


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Ali Bayraktar  Identity Verified
Turkey
Member (2007)
English to Turkish
+ ...
Question & Suggestion Aug 5, 2008

Enrique wrote:
The feature has been modified in such a way that you can now post an answer even if you posted a reference comment.


That sounds good to me.

The reverse restriction is still in place (you can't post a reference comment after posting an answer).


I hope one fine day there would be such restriction for "ask-the-asker" option for those who already proposed answers.

I have another question and a suggestion about controlling the correctness of the reference posts.
In KudoZ, generally the correctness of the answers controlled by the askers or agree disagree providers. (I can say 90%)
But what about the correctness of reference posts? I am asking it not for the askers but for those who would search database after long time.

I suggest "the most helpful reference" option to be selected by the asker in order to qualify their correctness. This may be an optional alternative for the asker and may be a not for points action.
Otherwise there would be a mass of information which would fatigue the searchers.

Regards,

M. Ali


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Enrique
Local time: 02:55
SITE STAFF
TOPIC STARTER
Qualifying reference comments Aug 5, 2008

M. Ali Bayraktar wrote:

The reverse restriction is still in place (you can't post a reference comment after posting an answer).


I hope one fine day there would be such restriction for "ask-the-asker" option for those who already proposed answers.


The use of the ask-the-asker box is clearly regulated by the site rules. In particular using it for commenting on answers (rule 3.4) or participants (rule 3.7), or attempting to influence others' decisions (rule 3.6) is not allowed.


I have another question and a suggestion about controlling the correctness of the reference posts.
In KudoZ, generally the correctness of the answers controlled by the askers or agree disagree providers. (I can say 90%)
But what about the correctness of reference posts? I am asking it not for the askers but for those who would search database after long time.

I suggest "the most helpful reference" option to be selected by the asker in order to qualify their correctness. This may be an optional alternative for the asker and may be a not for points action.
Otherwise there would be a mass of information which would fatigue the searchers.


Peer-grading has been included in reference comments for this purpose. Askers do not define correctness but usefulness. Being at the bottom of the KudoZ page and not included in the summary box, reference comments could be easily ignored by uninterested searchers.

Regards,
Enrique


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writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
I tried it Aug 6, 2008

I posted a reference (only) but when the question was closed, I received the following message:

A question you answered has been closed.
The asker has selected another answer.

Does this mean that posting references will automatically end up lowering a person's 'reliability ratio', just as it does when people post NFG answers?


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KudoZ experiment: Option to post 'reference information'

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