Simultaneous double entries
Thread poster: Eddy Coodee

Eddy Coodee  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:42
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
May 25, 2009

Hi,

I haven't been a member for that long, but it does happen quite frequently that two translators submit the exact same KudoZ answer at more or less the same time. Of course one will always be a couple of seconds or sometimes even minutes faster than the other, as both are working on the answer for a few minutes.

Because the page is not automatically updated in real-time, neither answerer is able to see if in the meantime somebody else has already given that exact same answer. I myself now open a separate browser window just to check if someone else has already answered the question while I was working on it, but it still happens a lot that someone who doesn't perform that final check will actually submit a double entry.

In itself this is not a big deal, but it must be relatively simple to program a function that compares any new entry with already existing ones, so that exactly matching entries are just not allowed.

Here's one example I just encountered, but it does happen quite frequently:

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_dutch/poetry_literature/3265201-flashback.html



[Edited at 2009-05-25 08:49 GMT]


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Vitals  Identity Verified
Lithuania
Local time: 21:42
Member (2008)
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
Agree May 25, 2009

I do agree with you, Eddy, it is quite discouraging sometimes. Your suggestion sounds very logical. Maybe the staff could fix this. The worst is when you ask a question and you get three or four answers which are the...same, and the answerers do not delete them (I've recently had a case like that). You just don't know whom to award...

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Özden Arıkan  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 20:42
Member
English to Turkish
Respectfully disagree May 25, 2009

While I understand this may cause frustration and inconvenience sometimes, I'd rather tend to see more merit in the archival aspect of Kudoz pages. Two answers might be identical, but one might include richer info, better examples, stronger references or reasoning, links, etc. I'd rather leave all information there for later - you can't imagine how useful term search can be, not only with finding the equivalent of a term, but also with all the information entered by everyone. Let the askers choose whichever is the most helpful, valuable entry for themselves, and at GBK questions, let the peers judge. But let everyone always have access to all info.

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Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 20:42
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
More information, more useful May 25, 2009

Özden Arıkan wrote:
While I understand this may cause frustration and inconvenience sometimes, I'd rather tend to see more merit in the archival aspect of Kudoz pages. Two answers might be identical, but one might include richer info, better examples, stronger references or reasoning, links, etc. I'd rather leave all information there for later - you can't imagine how useful term search can be, not only with finding the equivalent of a term, but also with all the information entered by everyone. Let the askers choose whichever is the most helpful, valuable entry for themselves, and at GBK questions, let the peers judge. But let everyone always have access to all info.


I completely agree! Repeated entries containing more information are more useful not just for the asker immediately, but to lots of other people who come around later on.


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Eddy Coodee  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:42
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Food for thought May 25, 2009

Although I can understand and to a certain extent agree with the reasoning of the two last participants in this discussion, there must be a solution that includes both sides of the argument.

The fact that two entries are exactly the same is frustrating and awkward for both the answerers and the asker, and a lot of the same does not provide substantial new references. And we are talking only about the few minutes overlap when two translators have the same idea. If one has posted well before the other, the issue doesn't arise, as the second translator will usually stick to the etiquette and just post his agreement with added remarks, which can also include references and links by the way.

And if there is indeed more information to be passed on, there is after all a dedicated space for both discussion and reference entries, which will not confuse the points-issue.


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Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 19:42
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Technical question May 25, 2009

I think the change suggested would at best be a partial solution as I imagine only an exact character-string match would be refused, and two answers so similar as to be effectively duplicates would still be allowed.

Would it be technically possible for an extra step to be inserted in the process?

(1) when you click on the "answer" field, perhaps the system could store a count of the answers received at that moment;

(2) then you spend time preparing your answer;

(3) then when you click "post answer" (or whatever it is), the system could check to see if the answer count has increased during step (2);

(4) if no new answer has been received, yours is accepted as now. However, if new answers have been added then a new step

(5) allows/forces you to check what has been added and amend/delete your answer as necessary.

I'm not at all hot on the technical side so maybe that's totally impracticable!


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Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 20:42
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
The rules of the game May 25, 2009

I know KudoZ is a very serious game, and is it far more than a game, but it is still a game. If two answers are really identical, then it is almost always possible to see who came first. (That is why the time was introduced.)

But KudoZ should not only be a race. It is not an ordinary dictionary. As Özden says, the archival aspect of it and the picture of how translators actually work is valuable. This is the real workshop, and I actually like it like that.

Even if the answers really are identical, and neither more detailed or informative than the other, they reinforce each other and show that the answer is logical.
Deleting them is not forbidden, but it is discouraged.

In fact I leave my answers, even if I later learn that I had misunderstood and someone disgrees, as a warning against the same misunderstanding.

It is not worth getting frustrated over KudoZ. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't, but in fact you never lose. I learn a lot from it, and grabbing points is the least interesting side of it. (Though I must admit, I like getting points too )

Give the points to the fastest answerer, toss a coin, or give points to the person who has least if you really can't decide in any other way who should have them.

But please, no more rules!



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Eddy Coodee  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:42
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Combined solution May 25, 2009

I think almost anything is programmable, but some implementations are easier than others. Only the site developers will be able to judge if something is worthwhile implementing.

I like your solution, Sheila. Ideally both solutions could be used though.

First, a check for an exact match could be done, and if none found a "review reminder" of answers already provided. This second step could possibly more easily be implemented if this is done regardless of answer count. Keeping track of the number of answers and their timestamp would take up extra resources in the database, while the 2-step check I mentioned above would not require data to be stored, merely retrieved.


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Klementina Shahini
United States
Local time: 14:42
Member (2009)
English to Albanian
+ ...
It's a workshop, it's not a race May 25, 2009

I absolutely agree with Christina. I really enjoy participating in KudoZ. It is a free workshop where a lot of experts give their opinions and you learn a lot from every single one. Even if the answers really are identical the interpretations most of the times are different and this help the asker and everybody else to get a better picture and understanding of the word.As far as for the point I would give the points to the one that has a better explanation or why not share the points between the right answers.

[Edited at 2009-05-25 11:57 GMT]


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Nicole Schnell  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:42
English to German
+ ...
Good grief. May 25, 2009

This is our KudoZ forum, not the Kentucky Derby.

KudoZ points issue? Lost 4 points? You are bitter? So what?

I am sorry, but - grow up.


My very best regards,

Nicole Schnell


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Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 15:42
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
Objectives, plus the meaning of "identical" May 25, 2009

It helps to have a clear vision of objectives:

The primary objective of help KudoZ is to help the asker.

A secondary objective is the growth of the KudoZ glossary.

In my opinion the suggested changes add nothing in line with these two objectives.

Besides "identical answers" should have the same term and the same explanation. If two answers have the same term and one has a better explanation, references and/or examples of use, then they would not be identical.

Regards,
Enrique


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Eddy Coodee  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:42
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Well... May 25, 2009

Nicole Schnell wrote:
This is our KudoZ forum, not the Kentucky Derby.
KudoZ points issue? Lost 4 points? You are bitter? So what?
I am sorry, but - grow up.


Right! Well, I did not mention a race, nor losing points or being bitter, and the fact of the matter is that points do get awarded for KudoZ answers, and maybe I'm wrong here, but I think for many participants this is in fact part of the fun, and part of the game, as it so happens to be with many games in this world.

All I suggested was a slight improvement to the existing structure of the game rules, so to speak, but as I said before, the other side of that argument has its own validity, which I do acknowledge.

And if your last remark is indicative of the kind of friendly and constructive criticism one encounters in "our" forum, just for the sake of helping one's fellow translator, I'm sorry to say that I can do without that kind of "support".


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Cedomir Pusica  Identity Verified
Serbia
Local time: 20:42
Member (2009)
English to Serbian
+ ...
The point May 25, 2009

Nicole Schnell wrote:

This is our KudoZ forum, not the Kentucky Derby.

KudoZ points issue? Lost 4 points? You are bitter? So what?

I am sorry, but - grow up.


My very best regards,

Nicole Schnell


Unfortunately, sometimes it does seem to me that the race for KudoZ points undermines the reason for this website's existance. It is a playground for so many vain translators and vanity is translators' trademark

This might qualify for an issue to address to the website administrators, because it's of pure technical nature.

Good translating to everyone!


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Susan Welsh  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 14:42
Member (2008)
Russian to English
+ ...
Agree with Christina May 25, 2009

Christine Andersen wrote:

It is not worth getting frustrated over KudoZ. Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't, but in fact you never lose....

But please, no more rules!



On the stage of world history upon which we live and work, "winning" at KudoZ is not important. A collaborative relationship among translators is much better--plus, yes, the archive.


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