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Askers should wait 24 hours before grading or transfer the grading rights to the community
Thread poster: Enrique

Enrique
Local time: 04:18
SITE STAFF
Jun 2, 2009

Dear members,

KudoZ rule 2.10 recommends that askers allow at least twenty-four (24) hours to pass before closing a question.

A new feature has been added to KudoZ where askers willing to select a most helpful answer before this time limit will still be allowed to enter such a preference, but the final grading decision will be left in the hands of the community.

To select the most helpful answer, the asker clicks on the link in the selected answer:




If less than 24 hours have elapsed since the question was posted, the following window will open:




If the asker chooses to wait until 24 hours have elapsed since the question was posted, the question will remain open and it will be graded normally by the asker.

If, on the other hand, the asker chooses to select the most helpful answer at this time, a new window will open to allow them to enter their preferences:




This window will allow the asker to select the most helpful answer, to assign points to it and to post a grading comment. The asker also has the option to select and edit a glossary entry associated with this answer.

If the asker does not select a glossary entry, the following message will be displayed:




If the asker makes a glossary entry, the message will include the following information:




Once this form is submitted, the question will remain open and new answers and peer comments can be added. About 72 hours after this submission, the system will grade the question in accordance with the following criteria:

a) If none of the answers has a net peer grading (agrees minus disagrees) of 2 or more, then the option selected by the asker will be used.

b) If at least one answer has a net peer grading higher than 1 and one of the answers has a net peer grading higher than the others, then this answer will be selected.

c) If at least one answer has a net peer grading higher than 1 and two or more answers share the same top peer grading, the answer posted first will be selected.

If the answer selected by the asker was chosen due to lack of votes or because the community voted for it, the amount of points, grading comment and (if entered) glossary entry selected by the asker will be chosen. If the asker did not make a glossary entry, one will be created automatically using the asked term and the suggested term.

If an different answer from the one selected by the asker was chosen by the community, 4 points will be assigned to this answer and a glossary entry will be created using the asked term and the suggested term.

After grading, the question will show the following message:




Thanks to all members for their support of the site.

Enrique


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Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:18
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Looks good! Jun 2, 2009

It looks good to me! Thank you for sharing. I think that it might get rid of answers and glossary entries chosen and made before any discussion has taken place!

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Jack Doughty  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:18
Member (2000)
Russian to English
+ ...
Looks bad! Jun 2, 2009

Just one more unnecessary restriction placed on KudoZ users. I have always thought that 24 hours was a ridiculously long recommendation. There are many cases when the correct answer becomes obvious to the asker long before this. I always wait at least a couple of hours before grading answers, sometimes maybe as long as 24 hours. I would only find this acceptable is another option were added: I am now sure I can select the correct answer and will do so now.

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Yaotl Altan  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 02:18
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
+ ...
I like it. Jun 2, 2009

It's an improved function. I support it.

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Attila Piróth  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 09:18
Member
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Beta phase? Jun 2, 2009

Hi Enrique,

I agree that giving more emphasis to the 24-hour recommendation for closing questions is a good idea. The present suggestion may well work out. I wonder whether it is in beta phase now, and the experience gathered in the coming weeks can help to fine-tune the solution, or it is final.

I would not be surprised if the overwhelming majority of the askers opted for selecting the most helpful answer later (rather than transferring the right of choosing the best answer to the community). They may, nonetheless, tend to forget to do so later, so the number of questions left open may rise. Some statistics on this issue will be welcome.

There is just one point that may need to be rectified:

Enrique wrote:
c) If at least one answer has a net peer grading higher than 1 and two or more answers share the same top peer grading, the answer posted first will be selected.


This is at odds with with the automatic grading of questions left open, as explained in the FAQ (blue added by myself):

1.9 - What happens if a "help" question isn't graded?

If a "help" question has received answers but not been closed within three days, email is sent to the asker reminding him or her to grade. If the question remains open after four such reminders have been sent (over 2 weeks), an attempt is made to select the best answer automatically. An 'autograding robot' makes its selection based on the net number of peer 'agrees' received by each answer, according to the following rules:
- To be considered, an answer must have at least two "net agrees" (agrees-disagrees).
- The answer with the highest number of net agrees is selected. If two answers have the same number of net agrees, the last one entered is selected. The idea is that if two answers gather the same number of net agrees, the one that did so in a shorter period of time may be better.

If no answer has at least 2 net agrees, it remains open.


I don't see any reason why the two types of question should not be treated on the same footing. I strongly believe the automatic grading solution described in the FAQ is superior, and should be used in both cases.

Kind regards,
Attila


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liz askew  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:18
Member (2007)
French to English
+ ...
I am now sure I can select the correct answer and will do so now. Jun 2, 2009

Hi

I do think the asker should have the ultimate right and not the community so I would support Jack's idea of adding another option for the asker to click.

All these rules just confuse me.

Liz Askew

[Edited at 2009-06-02 14:35 GMT]


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Enrique
Local time: 04:18
SITE STAFF
TOPIC STARTER
Grading criteria Jun 2, 2009

Attila Piróth wrote:

I don't see any reason why the two types of question should not be treated on the same footing. I strongly believe the automatic grading solution described in the FAQ is superior, and should be used in both cases.



Hi Attila,

All ProZ.com implementations are monitored and adjusted based on members feedback and usage patterns.

Regarding the grading criteria in case of a tie, the normal grading robot makes its decision about a couple of weeks after the posting of the question, so it was considered that over such long time the answer posted later should be better.

In the new implementation the decision is made only 72 hours after the grading was left in the hands of the community, so it was considered that the first answer should be given priority.

Regards,
Enrique


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Stéphanie Soudais  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 09:18
Member (2006)
English to French
Agree Jun 2, 2009

liz askew wrote:

I do think the asker should have the ultimate right and not the community so I would support Jack's idea of adding another option for the asker to click.

All these rules just confuse me.


I fully agree. How often are we told that the first aim of KudoZ is to help the asker? As far as I know, only the asker can know and decide who helps him/her the most.

If closing a question too early really is the issue, why not simply prevent anyone from closing a question within 24 hours?

I don't really see the point of this new feature.

Stéphanie


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Rebekka Groß  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:18
English to German
I'm with those who oppose the new feature Jun 2, 2009

I also don't think that the decision should be left with the community.

If my translation is due today and I receive an answer that solves my query I should be allowed to grade and close it there and then. The next day I'm probably too busy with another project and forget to go back. And by the time the ProZ.com reminder to grade arrives I'll probably not even remember asking the question. OK, I'm exaggerating but you get my drift.

I know that it sometimes seems that the asker selects the "wrong" answer but how can the community select the right answer without knowing the full context?

Stéphanie makes a good point: Why not prevent grading and closing within the first 24 hours altogether?

Also, not all queries need any, let alone extensive discussion.

Lastly, this feature will neither prevent wrong or useless glossary entries nor prevent askers from selecting an unsuitable answer.



[Edited at 2009-06-02 16:49 GMT]


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Enrique
Local time: 04:18
SITE STAFF
TOPIC STARTER
The middle ground Jun 2, 2009

Stéphanie Soudais wrote:

I fully agree. How often are we told that the first aim of KudoZ is to help the asker? As far as I know, only the asker can know and decide who helps him/her the most.

If closing a question too early really is the issue, why not simply prevent anyone from closing a question within 24 hours?


Hi Stéphanie,

Both your arguments above carry some weight and are supported by a good part of the community. The new implementation provides a road along the middle ground.

With the new implementation askers can say "I already had all the help I need" and select the answers they considered to be the most helpful, even when a short time has elapsed since asking time. They will not be asked to take further actions on the question. In my opinion they are not deprived of any benefit.

At the same it will be possible to provide further answers and peer comments while the question is still open, thus enriching the question for the community.

Regards,
Enrique


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Rebekka Groß  Identity Verified
Local time: 08:18
English to German
additional answers for closed questions... Jun 2, 2009

Enrique wrote:
At the same it will be possible to provide further answers and peer comments while the question is still open, thus enriching the question for the community.


... are already possible now. I know because I received answers to questions that I'd already chosen an answer for and awarded points not that long ago


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Enrique
Local time: 04:18
SITE STAFF
TOPIC STARTER
choices Jun 2, 2009

Rebekka Gross wrote:

If my translation is due today and I receive an answer that solves my query I should be allowed to grade and close it there and then. The next day I'm probably too busy with another project and forget to go back. And by the time the ProZ.com reminder to grade arrives I'll probably not even remember asking the question. OK, I'm exaggerating but you get my drift.


You still have the right to select the answer you consider most helpful, suggest a glossary entry and forget about the question whenever you want.

The only "problem" you could face is the possibility of having another answer selected by the community.


Rebekka Gross wrote:

Stéphanie makes a good point: Why not prevent grading and closing within the first 24 hours altogether?


Because this would deprive you of the right to select the answer you consider most helpful, suggest a glossary entry and forget about the question whenever you want.

Regards,
Enrique


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Stéphanie Soudais  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 09:18
Member (2006)
English to French
Is it fully implemented or not? Jun 2, 2009

In my pair (EN-FR), I can see that some questions asked today (less than 24 hours ago) are already closed as usual, while another one is "closed" by the asker but is in fact still open according to the new system...

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Enrique
Local time: 04:18
SITE STAFF
TOPIC STARTER
Delivered today Jun 2, 2009

Stéphanie Soudais wrote:

Is it fully implemented or not?

In my pair (EN-FR), I can see that some questions asked today (less than 24 hours ago) are already closed as usual, while another one is "closed" by the asker but is in fact still open according to the new system...


This was delivered today, when the announcement was made, so you will see some mixed cases for about a day.

Regards,
Enrique


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