European Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese
Thread poster: Susana Valdez

Susana Valdez  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 14:10
Member (2006)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Jun 3, 2009

After seeing several discussions about Portuguese and Brazilian translations and their differences, I would like to know your opinion and the staff's opinion about separating these two variants in Kudoz.
I've never disagreed with any answer from a fellow colleague just because it's from a different variant, but, today, for the first time, I was involved in a feverish discussion about a translation into Portuguese and Brazilian because my colleagues decided that a Portuguese translation is incorrect just because it's European Portuguese. Please take into consideration that the asker did not specify if the translation was for Brazil or for Portugal.
In order to avoid this kind of disagreements and, most importantly, to not create a dictionary (Glossary-building KudoZ) with translations into two very different variants - I must ask the Proz.com staff to consider differentiating these 2 variants. As you know, a Brazilian translation is not acceptable in Portugal and the same is true for the other way around.


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Christina Paiva  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 11:10
Portuguese to English
+ ...
PT & BR together forever! Jun 4, 2009

Hi Susana!

I was always aware that both languages are very different, but at the same time I believed they could not be THAT different... After I discovered Proz and Kudoz, I was surprised to find out how different they are! Anyway, I think Portuguese variants should remain 'happily together'.

One of the things I like the most about Kudoz is the opportunity to learn. Helping peers, posting suggestions, taking part of a discussion or simply following it are some of Kudoz great features, but having the chance to compare differences between such similar/dissimilar languages is soooo interesting

In my language pairs and specialities, if there are distinct words in pt/pt and pt/br for a term, someone will add that information. Moreover, the expert contributions to the translation of difficult terms, no matter the answerer's native language, is invaluable.

I would only suggest that a box be added, so that the language variant of the selected answer can be appropriately identified in the glossary.

Regards,

Christina


[Edited at 2009-06-04 03:55 GMT]


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Carla Guerreiro  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 15:10
French to Portuguese
+ ...
Specifying the variant Jun 4, 2009

Hello everybody,

I think that, most of all, it's important to specify which variant we do want when we ask questions in Kudoz, because terminology may be very different in both variants.


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Susana Valdez  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 14:10
Member (2006)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Add a box Jun 4, 2009

Christina Paiva wrote:
I would only suggest that a box be added, so that the language variant of the selected answer can be appropriately identified in the glossary.


Hi Christina and Carla:

Thank you for your feedback. Maybe adding a box, as Christina suggested, is a good and simple solution.


Have a nice day!
Susana


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Ligia Dias Costa  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 14:10
Member (2008)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
I agree Jun 4, 2009

and have notified staff of Christina's suggestion.

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Susana Valdez  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 14:10
Member (2006)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Ligia! Jun 4, 2009



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Carla Lopes  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 14:10
Member (2008)
Spanish to Portuguese
+ ...
I couldn't agree more Jun 4, 2009

I also saw myself involved on the same discussion, with the same question (http://www.proz.com/kudoz/3282859) and honestly, not only it was unpleasant for me, but it also was for sure for the other people who have given their answers, and the people who are voting and helping to find the right translation.

In the future, more and more, there will be disagreements, because Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese are NOT so alike as people think. And here in Proz these differences must not be subject for discussions like the one that occured yesterday.

I'll be at your disposal to help on dissipating these kind of situations, and find a way to distinguish these two variants.

Thanks.


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Ligia Dias Costa  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 14:10
Member (2008)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
To all involved in the discussion Jun 4, 2009

These discussions are not usual. ProZ.com European and Brasilian colleagues co-exist happily and respectfully all the time. In that particular question, there was an intervention - not usual, I repeat - invalidating the PT EUR answer and benefitting the PT BR answer, which clearly is not fairplay. Both versions can be correct, provided they are applied in the country they are meant to be.

Also, let me remind you that ProZ.com (by Henry's initiative) separated the two variants in the last contest, for the sake of fairness and accuracy. So, efforts have been done in order to contemplate the two portuguese variants of the language.

I believe it is up to all us, users, members, translators, to respect the variants of the language and to accept differences and also the valuable input one variant can give to another. I, myself, have the rewarding experience of being helped by Brasilian colleagues, that, although they cannot give me the European Portuguese translation for one term, they can give me the Brasilian term, which many times is a great "clue" to the european one.

Let us all embrace the linguistic diversity of our language and profit from it!

Ligia Dias Costa


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José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 11:10
English to Portuguese
+ ...
This is an old issue Jun 4, 2009

I don't think it dates back as far as 1500, as supposedly PT-PT was spoken for an unknown length of time in Brazil. It was definitely a gradual change. What amazes me most is that once I met a number of people from Macau, and they spoke PT with a BR-like enunciation, but thoroughly PT-PT grammar and vocabulary. So maybe there are other, less known variants of Portuguese.

We - lusophones - have a specific problem: to convince non-lusophones that:

  • Portuguese - any variant of it - is one and the same language as source;
  • PT-PT and PT-BR should be considered as two different languages as target;
  • There is a cultural factor involved (viz. logic - see #6 at http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/1675/ ) that hampers direct conversion from one variant into the other - it's best to translate into each variant from the original.


These ideas are not so easy to sell.

How will they buy the idea that speakers of one variant, when moving into the other's environment, won't have to study at all? ... that they'll naturally adapt their way of using that same language over time?

How will they buy the idea that entering the PT-speaking market as a whole will cost them twice as much as any other language, in translation?


Considering all this, let's tackle the Kudoz issue at hand.

I fought a long battle with Proz over separating the PT & BR variants... and lost. Their fear was that the ES folks would demand shattering their language into countless variants. We, lusophones, know that Spanish-speaking people, regardless from where, can understand each other. They don't believe that a Brazilian can understand a Mexican (IMO, amazingly, the variant of ES closest to PT-BR) with more ease than they understand some Lisboners - not to mention other PT-PT-speaking regions.

So Proz's response was to implement language variants.

While it's not wrong to say in Brazil "as peúgas dos miúdos sobre a alcatifa", it's pretty uncanny, and would make anyone here dash for a dictionary. BR "Aurelio" lists all these words. I wonder what reaction "as meias das crianças em cima do carpete" would cause in Portugal. On the other hand, "the children's/kids' socks on the carpet" would be readily understood in any English-speaking country as equivalent to both these different expressions.

So my suggestion for Proz's "palliative" solution to Kudoz in PT would be to have:

  • Optional PT variant indication for PT-to-any-language
  • Mandatory PT variant indication for any-language-to-PT


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mccampello  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 11:10
English to Portuguese
+ ...
The one and only Portuguese Jun 4, 2009

I don't agree. There is Portuguese, one and only language, and its different accents and regionalities.
You will find the same in English, French or Spanish, for example.
There are words regionally used people from other place cannot understand, The same for accents. The less educated people are, more difficulty arises (both to understand and be understood).
It seems to me there is no point in separating European, African and American Portuguese, specially now, when efforts are the opposite direction. All portuguese speaking countries have signed (and it's been enforced) an ortographic agreement.
See at: Resolution of the Assembly of the Republic (of Portugal) 8/2000 of 18 November 1999 approves the Protocol Amending the Orthographic Agreement of the Portuguese Language, signed in Praia, Cape Verde, on 17 July 1998, by the governments of Angola, Brazil, Cape Verde, Guinea-Bissau, Mozambique, Portugal, and Sao Tome e Principe.
http://www.glin.gov/search.action


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mccampello  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 11:10
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Let's keep the focus on the right thing Jun 5, 2009

As I was the one who made comments on your suggestions, let me make very clear I didn't, and I wouldn't, do it just because they are from a variant different from mine. I wonder what is the aim of trying to change the focus. Don’t you think this would move us away from the core of the problem? What credibility can you expect from a glossary built with such care? What to say to a colleague who will search this term and trust your "confidence" just to find himself delivering a poor translation?




[Editado em 2009-06-05 16:26 GMT]


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