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Answer with clear mistake selected in Kudoz, what now?
Thread poster: delveneto

delveneto
United States
Local time: 17:43
English to Portuguese
+ ...
Jun 20, 2009

I am pretty sure that this question has been already discussed here but I can't find a thread about it (I didn't actually tried too hard to find, but I did try), so I will ask.

The situation is when the asker chooses and awards points to an answer that has a clear mistake, I mean, really evident, as much as 2+2=5 (figuratively speaking). When I said "chooses", it means that there is at least another answer that doesn't seem to have any clear mistake. So, in detriment of a clearly more correct answer, the asker chooses a wrong one.

Is there anything that can be done when this kind of situation happens?

I mean, it's not only bad for the answerer, that spent sometimes tons of minutes researching, to give a good answer, but also for Kudoz that will carry in its "memory", a wrong answer for eternity.

Of course this situation is a situation related to a question that I have answered, but still, I'm sure it happens more often than we would like it to (I've seen it before in a question that I did not participate, and it made me sad).

The problem, the way I see it, is that it takes some "skillz", some competence, some WILLING, from the asker, to choose a better/appropriate answer but a few times, maybe due to a lack of time or whatever, they just choose any one.


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Viachaslau  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 23:43
English to Russian
+ ...
puhh Jun 20, 2009

i've just had a very similar situation.
Tell me how Kudoz should work
A translator posts a question, i submit an answer, eventually the asker decides to choose my answer in the target text, however kudoz points are given to another answerer just because of peer agreement. I've always thought that this unique feature of proz.com is used to get and choose the most helpful answer, the one which is eventually used in the source text. But in practice it is a bit different sometimes, is it?

[Edited at 2009-06-20 20:48 GMT]


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Christel Zipfel  Identity Verified
Member (2004)
Italian to German
+ ...
It happens all the time Jun 20, 2009

I advice to contact a moderator in this case. Moderators are not "linguistic authorities", but maybe someone can help you.

Good luck!


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delveneto
United States
Local time: 17:43
English to Portuguese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Theory x Fact Jun 20, 2009

Well, actually I asked this question to know if there already was a kind of a "smart" solution, since this shoud be a very common problem that has been happening for years, I suppose.

It's difficult for me to contact the moderators without knowing what happens next, if anything at all, because:

- I don't want to hurt the asker's feelings by pointing out that he made a poor choice (for its own sake, though);
- I don't want to hurt the chosen answer's owner as well for equivalent reason.

But, on the other hand, I just feel bad to see that big answer, with a big mistake, being part of Kudoz database, as a "final veredict". And I also feel bad for seeing my "until-proven-wrong" supposably right answer relegated to oblivion.

One solution would be the moderators to just "edit" the chosen answer but then they would have to decide which of the other answers, if available, is the best one, or even if there is indeed a good answer, which is unfeasible.

Well, on second thought, the best thing to do is to just forget it... Or, since this has been going on for years, I suppose, did anyone already think of a smart solution?


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delveneto
United States
Local time: 17:43
English to Portuguese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
A different situation Jun 20, 2009

Viachaslau wrote:

i've just had a very similar situation.
Tell me how Kudoz should work
A translator posts a question, i submit an answer, eventually the asker decides to choose my answer in the target text, however kudoz points are given to another answerer just because of peer agreement. I've always thought that this unique feature of proz.com is used to get and choose the most helpful answer, the one which is eventually used in the source text. But in practice it is a bit different sometimes, is it?

[Edited at 2009-06-20 20:48 GMT]


Well, I understand your frustration but your situation is more subtle because you didn't say that the chosen answer was wrong, or has a clear mistake, then "complaining" about it becomes fruitless. It may be a matter of context or style or any other, as long as answers are acceptable.

What I am talking about is WRONG answers, or answers that clearly have a mistake and still are chosen as "the one". I know of one that you can even prove mathmatecally that the answer is WRONG (believe it or not!). I can't point it out here because pointing out askers and answerers is not what this thread is about, but it is just awful.


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Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 18:43
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
Some basic definitions Jun 20, 2009

The main goal of the "help" KudoZ system is to provide those in need of translation assistance with access to timely help. The fact that an archive of previously posted terms with suggested translations has built up is a planned, yet peripheral, benefit.

Askers have the right to select the most helpful answer.

Comments about the grading decisions of a particular asker would not be in line with site rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_answ/3.7#3.7

Moderators do not serve as linguistic authorities.

Regards,
Enrique


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Jessica Noyes  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
You can still go back Jun 20, 2009

You can still go back and "disagree" and comment on why it is incorrect. When I use kudoz, I don't just blindly accept the answer, I go into the discussion for background. Your disagree could help a methodical translator avoid a serious error.

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Anne Bohy  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 23:43
English to French
There are obviously askers who don't read comments Jun 20, 2009

I do not know why comments (even a simple '.') are mandatory when answering, as nothing can oblige askers to read comments, and obviously some don't.
I never report or contest, but I simply try to keep track of (=flag) them, not to answer their questions anymore... but actually they don't stay very long in Kudoz, I think.


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Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 23:43
English to Croatian
+ ...
Ego and such Jun 20, 2009

delveneto wrote:



- I don't want to hurt the asker's feelings by pointing out that he made a poor choice (for its own sake, though);
- I don't want to hurt the chosen answer's owner as well for equivalent reason.


Why would someone's ego interfere with professional practices and the accuracy of a translation? I would suggest to those whose feelings are " hurt" to leave their ego trips at home and embrace professional practices and constructive criticism. Again, for this to be in line with professional practices, the reviewer must be a higher authority than those who are being criticized( reviewed) ( in this case, a linguistic or subject-matter authority).


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writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
Same old story Jun 20, 2009

There is nothing new about this. Askers are now the untouchable 'kings/queens' of their questions. Once upon a time, a really incorrect, misleading glossary entry could be changed by a Mod so that others wouldn't be misled in the future. Now Mods have been officially demoted and are no longer allowed to act as 'language authorities', so the blunders remain. I am not referring to marketing phrases, slogans etc. where it's just a matter of opinion. I'm referring to out and out errors. Disagrees, even entered later on, are the only recourse we have to help signal the error to future users. The disagrees are often refuted by Answerers/Askers (with empty statements but no firm refs to back their claims...), but an informed translator searching the glossary at a later date will see and understand the warnings.
A real pity, because this is gradually turning the glossaries into a mockery, but that's the way things are.



[Edited at 2009-06-21 09:47 GMT]


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Anna Sylvia Villegas Carvallo
Mexico
Local time: 16:43
English to Spanish
My conclusion Jun 20, 2009

I have never relied on the Kudoz glossary. (And you, Delveneto, have given the answer. That's it.)

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Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 14:43
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Wrong answer Jun 21, 2009

If the answer chosen is clearly wrong, you should disagree, explaining why the answer is wrong. Disagrees can be given to an answer even after a question is closed. Do not hesitate to disagree with a wrong answer. Your disagree may help a future glossary user avoid using the incorrect chosen answer.



[Edited at 2009-06-21 00:33 GMT]


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delveneto
United States
Local time: 17:43
English to Portuguese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Already done Jun 21, 2009

In my particular case, someone else that had agreed with my answer also posted a disagree for the answer that was chosen and explained where the mistake was. And this was done BEFORE the asker chose the wrong answer as HIS answer.

As I wrote in the beginning of this thread, even for you to choose your "right" answer, if you are the asker, you need SOME knowledge of the language, some WILLING to do the right thing. I guess some people work with languages that they simply don't have enough knowledge even for simple decisions or they just don't care doing the right thing after they have their answer.

In my particular case, no explanation was offered by the asker as to why he chose an answer that had a mistake and a disagree pointing out to the mistake. I just wonder if he did indeed use the wrong answer...


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Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 16:43
German to English
What happened to the distinction between pro-level and non-pro level KudoZ? Jun 21, 2009

PRO questions are those that are asked by OR that are suitable for professional translators.

Non-PRO questions are those that are asked by people who are not professional translators, and that can be answered by any bilingual person without the aid of a dictionary

http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/95/

Enrique wrote:

The main goal of the "help" KudoZ system is to provide those in need of translation assistance with access to timely help. The fact that an archive of previously posted terms with suggested translations has built up is a planned, yet peripheral, benefit.

Askers have the right to select the most helpful answer.

Comments about the grading decisions of a particular asker would not be in line with site rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_answ/3.7#3.7

Moderators do not serve as linguistic authorities.



The idea of KudoZ as purely a "help system" makes sense for askers who aren't pro translators, i.e. who ask questions that can be answered by any bilingual person. Translators will do what they can to help a non-pro, fully understanding that concepts such as context, target audience, language variety, online research etc. may be over their heads and that despite all the help askers may still end up making poor choices when closing their questions. KudoZ as a “help system” is fine for non-pro KudoZ.

But the idea that pro-level KudoZ can’t be designed to produce professional results and that all the efforts to make it so are to be abandoned and that it is to be replaced with “Glossary Building KudoZ” is a bitter disappointment to the hundreds of pros who were excited about the prospects for KudoZ in the beginning.

Enforcement of the old rules for asking questions would go a long way toward professionalizing pro-level KudoZ.

2.1 - Use KudoZ to ask for a translation only after you have consulted the KudoZ archives (KudoZ > ProZ.com Term Search from the main menu), dictionaries, search engines and any other commonly available resources that might be helpful. If you find translations elsewhere and still wish to post a KudoZ question, include the information you have found and explain what further information you seek.

2.3 - Sufficient context must be provided with each question. When there is no context, indicate the subject area and type of document. It can be helpful to enter entire sentences or even paragraphs where the term(s) in question occur. Appropriate general and detailed fields indicating the context must be chosen from the dropdown menus. Avoid choosing "Other" when there is a more appropriate field.


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The Misha
Local time: 17:43
Russian to English
+ ...
What do you care? Jun 21, 2009

bohy wrote:

I do not know why comments (even a simple '.') are mandatory when answering, as nothing can oblige askers to read comments, and obviously some don't.
I never report or contest, but I simply try to keep track of (=flag) them, not to answer their questions anymore... but actually they don't stay very long in Kudoz, I think.


Just like Bohy, I don't bother answering questions from askers who prove themselves incompetent. As to the famous glossary, I never once even bothered looking at it. It's not an authoritative resource, and those who treat it as such are up for a rough awakening, and soon. So what's the big deal? Just ignore the nincompoop next time.

[Edited at 2009-06-21 01:26 GMT]


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