| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Voters for removal of useless reclassification as PRO / non-PRO. Thread poster: Michael Beijer
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hazmatgerman (X)
Local time: 11:47
English to German
McClure for your detailed reasoning, to which I'd only like to add a vote and note.
The vote would be for keeping the present arrangement, in line with Armbruster's, Bavington's, The Misha's and others' arguments.
The note is to Meijer: the number of proposals a question draws not only depends on who might have an answer but on who is online, willing to spend time, satisfied with the context given, working in the field/pair and so on. Therefore a small number of answerers does not ne... See more McClure for your detailed reasoning, to which I'd only like to add a vote and note.
The vote would be for keeping the present arrangement, in line with Armbruster's, Bavington's, The Misha's and others' arguments.
The note is to Meijer: the number of proposals a question draws not only depends on who might have an answer but on who is online, willing to spend time, satisfied with the context given, working in the field/pair and so on. Therefore a small number of answerers does not necessarily indicate lack of knowledge as apparently suggested in your initial post. And, I for one have in the past voted both for "upgrading" and for "downgrading" (if one may call it that) questions.
Regards
[Edited at 2009-07-17 07:14 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Please remove both 'PRO/non-PRO' and 'not for points' options. They are not necessary.
| | | | Lianne Wilson
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:47
Japanese to English
+ ...
| Reclassification | Jul 17, 2009 |
The number of people agreeing (who seem to be in the vast majority) would suggest that it isn't a personal issue.
Personally, I don't see a problem with getting rid of PRO/non-PRO and points/not-for-points. I'm sure a great deal of people would accept being paid for an 'easy' translation, so why should there be a problem accepting getting points for an 'easy' KudoZ question?
Anyway, that's my two CentZ.
| | | | Michael Beijer 
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:47
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Katalin, thank you for your detailed comments. But I must disagree. | Jul 17, 2009 |
“Michael, reclassification should not be a personal issue”
I said:
“I argue that there is no difference between so-called PRO and non-PRO questions. Furthermore, I dare anyone in support of the feature to present me with arguments to prove that a specific question is actually non-PRO.”
To which you (Katalin) said:
“I argue that there is a difference. You are lucky, if you have not seen many questions that are of the "how do you sa... See more “Michael, reclassification should not be a personal issue”
I said:
“I argue that there is no difference between so-called PRO and non-PRO questions. Furthermore, I dare anyone in support of the feature to present me with arguments to prove that a specific question is actually non-PRO.”
To which you (Katalin) said:
“I argue that there is a difference. You are lucky, if you have not seen many questions that are of the "how do you say I love you in X language", or "I want to get a tattoo in Chinese characters, what is LOVE in Chinese?" or "how do you write my name using Japanese letters?". These questions coming from non-logged in visitors almost all the time. I hope you agree that these are non-PRO questions.”
Katalin, thank you for your detailed comments. But I must disagree.
I said:
“I argue that there is no difference between so-called PRO and non-PRO questions. Furthermore, I dare anyone in support of the feature to present me with arguments to prove that a specific question is actually non-PRO.”
Even if someone (logged in or not) asks something along the lines of:
"How do you say I love you in X language", or "I want to get a tattoo in Chinese characters, what is LOVE in Chinese?" or "How do you write my name using Japanese letters?"
I am still of the opinion that there is no meaningful difference between these questions, and so-called Pro questions. A question is a question, and it is impossible to differentiate between professional and non-professional. ‘Professional’ is a meaningless term.
In reference to what you said about ‘filtering’ ...
“I have been using KudoZ for 9 years or so, and I am glad the PRO/non-PRO classification is there, for many reasons, such as that as I have the option to filter out non-PRO questions (see examples above). I still answer non-PRO questions, too, when I have time, but the classification helps me to prioritize, if I only have time to answer a few questions I would rather help site users than non-logged in visitors.”
Whether or not someone has decided to classify them as PRO or non-PRO, it is relatively simple to see whether or not you think you can make a useful contribution or not. In your email (program) you can see the term in question; you can then easily decide whether or not you think that you can help or not. ‘PRO’ or ‘non-PRO’ just gets in the way; it is merely an added layer of uselessness in my opinion.
You said:
“OK, so this is your personal experience, and you seem to have an issue with people reclassifying your own questions. If this is the reason why you suggested abolishing the classification system, I dare to say it may be a bit premature suggestion.”
Thank you for taking the trouble to sift through my past Kudoz questions. Really. I appreciate it. However, I am trying to make a more general point here. I am a busy person. I use http://ksearch.proz.com/search/ frequently, and I am actually very happy with the help it has offered me so far, in spite of my rather cranky forum topic. However, the ‘PRO’ or ‘non-PRO’, and the ‘not for points’ options are simply a waste of my time, and, I believe, not only a waste of all of our time, but WRONG too.
Yes, I am indeed ‘sick and tired’ of what I have thus far experienced, but not on the basis of any ‘personal’ or ‘subjective’ experience’.
You then go on to quote me saying:
“It is very easy to judge when you carefully refrain from ever making any definite positive statements about anything.”
and
”Invariably, they state that my question should be reclassified as non-PRO (never the other way around) WHILE NOT BEING ABLE TO ANSWER THE QUESTION THEMSELVES.”
to which you add:
“Please reflect on these two statements again, in light of the actual questions of yours that were reclassified. What I see is that reclassification was done at least once by the person who offered the chosen answer, which contradicts your second statement, and also shows that the person is not a point-grabber (non-PRO points do not show up in the total point count towards directory ranking). Others that voted for non-PRO reclassification also contributed by offering translations either as an answer, or a discussion comment, or as an agree to another answer.”
Hmm. Katalin, all I can say to this is to repeat what I have already said:
Irrespective of what language pair I work in (Dutch/Flemish -> English), I am still of the opinion that these two functions of the Proz question system are intrinsically WRONG.
(non-PRO versus PRO) +
‘(not) for points’ 3.
I believe that Both useless and, what’s more, they get in the way of the general purpose of this site.
But, all of my bitching aside, you are actually right. When you say the following:
“If anybody makes a comment about your decision for posting the question, or makes any other unprofessional remark, please refer to the KudoZ rules and if there is a violation, report the case to a moderator.”
You are right. Instead of complaining here (where it doesn’t really matter what I say), the next time I feel that someone has wrongly suggested reclassifying my question as ‘non-PRO’, I shall refer to the KudoZ moderators, rather than vent and/or rant here;)
Thanks. Although I might sound unappreciative, I am actually very happy that you actually went through the trouble to give the matter some serious thought.
Michael ▲ Collapse
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Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:47
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | I repeat: SUPPLY ME WITH one single QUESTION THAT IS NON-PRO, and I will agree with you. | Jul 17, 2009 |
ScottishWildCat wrote:
A question is a question, an answer is an answer.
[Edited at 2009-07-16 17:35 GMT]
That's what I am trying to say. There are NO BAD OR GOOD QUESTIONS. There are only questions. If the question seems unprofessional to you, why not rely on your own judgement and
1. either simply ignore it, or,
2. try and indicate in your answer why it is 'non-PRO'.
Instead of shirking responsibility, deal with it yourself as YOU see fit.
'How do you say I love you in Portuguese,' is NOT an unprofessional thing to ask here.
I repeat: SUPPLY ME WITH one single QUESTION THAT IS NON-PRO, and I will agree with you.
| | | | | Unprofessional? | Jul 17, 2009 |
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
'How do you say I love you in Portuguese,' is NOT an unprofessional thing to ask here.
Hmm, I wouldn't equate un-professional with non-professional! The distinction is rather between professional and amateur (or learner) level questions.
I do see where you're coming from, but to take your own example, if someone asks for a brainstorming on all the possible ways of saying "I love you" in Portuguese, that is clearly a pro-level question. If someone comes in (and it does happen) saying "I met this wonderful guy when I was on holiday and I want to know how you say "I love you" in Portuguese", that is a non-Pro question that could be answered by anyone with a basic knowledge of the language.
It's also worth noting that the classification is reversible: if a Pro question has been changed to non-Pro (or vice versa), you can vote to have it changed back - or change it back directly if you have editing rights. It's probably advisable to call in a moderator at this point, though.
Personally, I'm in favour of keeping the Pro/non-Pro classification and abolishing not-for-points questions, but as Enrique has already said, the site has no intention of changing either of them.
[Edited at 2009-07-17 13:35 GMT]
| | | | | Don't want to sound harsh... | Jul 17, 2009 |
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
I am a professional translator and every single question I ask here is a PRO question, and I am getting sick and tired of people suggesting that my questions are in fact non professional. Invariably, they state that my question should be reclassified as non-PRO (never the other way around) WHILE NOT BEING ABLE TO ANSWER THE QUESTION THEMSELVES.
...but according to your profile, you asked about 25 questions since January 2009. Among these, 3 are classified non-pro: 1 was classified non-pro by you right from the start, the 2 others were reclassified by the community.
When I read your post I thought you had asked dozens of questions with at least half of them being reclassified, which is not the case.
I answer quite a lot of KudoZ (I'm kind of an addict, I admit!), and I'm very glad that non-pro questions exist. IMO it's not questions that aren't pro but askers. If someone is unable to check in a bilingual dictionary, to do a quick search on Google or in the Kudoz archives to find the translation of "good morning", this individual doesn't work in a professionally manner.
Stéphanie
Edited to add: On the other hand, I don't understand why some people ("Kudoz editors" or whatever their names) have the right to reclassify a question without the required 3 votes.
[Edited at 2009-07-17 13:37 GMT]
| | | | Andrea Riffo
Chile
Local time: 05:47
English to Spanish
+ ...
hazmatgerman wrote:
And, I for one have in the past voted both for "upgrading" and for "downgrading" (if one may call it that) questions.
FWIW, I've also voted for the reclassification as NON-PRO of questions I myself have answered.
Regards
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Andrea Riffo
Chile
Local time: 05:47
English to Spanish
+ ...
David Russi wrote: ariffo wrote:
They might also be deciding that they do not want to receive suggestions from lots of UNqualified people who rush to take a guess at every question under the sun in the hopes of getting lucky enough to score some points, David.
Maybe... personally, I would rather screen out some incorrect, irrelevant, unqualified, and just plain wrong answers than miss out on possibly the best suggestion out there that wil not come because I picked "not for points". But that's just me, I guess...
It boils down to personal preference, but I'm glad that at least there's the chance to make that choice.
Regards,
Andrea
| | | | | A few clarifications | Jul 18, 2009 |
Michael, your original topic was about the PRO non-PRO classification.
The "not for points" question type is a different animal.
If you want to discuss that, it may be better to open a separate thread.
I think you misunderstand the meaning of the categories.
I believe Enrique's post summarized the main idea, and Marie-Helene also pointed out that is NOT about Professional vs. UNprofessional. It is about the level of language or specialist knowledge one needs to pos... See more Michael, your original topic was about the PRO non-PRO classification.
The "not for points" question type is a different animal.
If you want to discuss that, it may be better to open a separate thread.
I think you misunderstand the meaning of the categories.
I believe Enrique's post summarized the main idea, and Marie-Helene also pointed out that is NOT about Professional vs. UNprofessional. It is about the level of language or specialist knowledge one needs to possess in order to provide an answer.
When you ask a question, on the input form it is worded like this:
PRO - question for professional translators or specialists
Non-PRO - a question for language learners
(Side note to Enrique: this definition is not the same as the one it the FAQ, wouldn't it be a good idea to make them consistent?)
Anyway, the point is that a PRO level question is something that (for whatever reason: very specialized, or a complex phrase, or many translations exists in the dictionary but need help picking the best for the given context, etc.) would be too difficult, too tricky for a simple bilingual person (without special training in the subject or specific linguistic training) to answer.
Any bilingual person would tell you how to say "I love you" in his/her languages. Any Japanese person would be able to write your name in katakana, he/she doesn't even need to be bilingual, just be able to read enough English to understand your question and pronounce your name. These are examples of non-PRO questions.
There is an article about the idea behind the classification system, and the proper use of it, I think it is worth reading it, as it gives a bit more info than the FAQ.
http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/95/
The article has a section about what to do if a question seems to be mis-classified.
Last note: non-PRO questions will award KudoZ-points just the same way as PRO questions - I am saying this to those who seem to think otherwise. As to not counting the non-PRO questions in one's KudoZ statistics - I think the idea is that answering a non-PRO level question requires less effort that answering a PRO question. Of course, that assumes correct (more or less objective) classification.
Katalin
[Edited at 2009-07-18 00:32 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:47
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
My point is apparently not really coming across.
Although I fully appreciate your statements b(*/*/*) , I am still of the opinion that there is no meaningful difference between a non-PRO and a PRO question.
Someone asks sth.
An other person asks sth else.
Etc, Etc.
But who am I to (ever) presume to know that what they are asking is pro or non-PRO?
It is a useless extra layer of uselessness. No more, no less.
I could also invent ... See more My point is apparently not really coming across.
Although I fully appreciate your statements b(*/*/*) , I am still of the opinion that there is no meaningful difference between a non-PRO and a PRO question.
Someone asks sth.
An other person asks sth else.
Etc, Etc.
But who am I to (ever) presume to know that what they are asking is pro or non-PRO?
It is a useless extra layer of uselessness. No more, no less.
I could also invent approximately 1,987 other randomly selected useless Proz Meta Options ... all of which would only further convoloute the whole process.
KEEP IT SIMPLE!
Let us help each other without the system getting in our way.
---------------------------> A good system is a system (that) you forget is there.
(silent invisible transparent.)
Katalin, I do not care about "the level of language or specialist knowledge one needs to possess in order to provide an answer." What I care about is THE ANSWER. What I need, is the answer. I will MYSELF decide whether or not I agree with what they say. I do not need a system to tell me that they are either PRO or non-PRO ... I can quite easily see what they are, at first glance. I myself am a professional, and I do not need a system getting in my way, trying to help me make my judgements for me. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | If you only care about the answer... | Jul 18, 2009 |
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
Katalin, I do not care about "the level of language or specialist knowledge one needs to possess in order to provide an answer." What I care about is THE ANSWER. What I need, is the answer.
You got the answer for your questions, right? So what is all the fuss about then?
If you don't care about the level, then you probably don't care about properly categorizing your questions - you can leave the default setting, which is PRO - but then you need to accept that the community may think otherwise.
By the way, the KudoZ system serves two purposes - one is the immediate help aspect, the other is the archives, the open glossary. This latter is not the main purpose, but nonetheless, a very important "side effect". The PRO vs. non-PRO differentiation helps preventing clutter (to some extent) in the glossary.
I can quite easily see what they are, at first glance.
Sure. From YOUR perspective. Have you ever tried using a "second glance"? Or a different perspective? Even though you are probably right most of the time, sometimes you may get a different result. Since KudoZ questions enter the public domain, they are not really yours entirely, people contribute to them in various ways, that's how the final glossary entry is created. I am not saying the process is perfect - oh, no - it is far from that. (Over the years, I have voiced my opinion many times about the various issues I see with the system.) However, I think having the questions categorized (both by level and by specialty) is one of the good attributes of the current system.
Again - and this is the last time I say this, I promise - if you happen to come across an overly zealous KudoZ-editor (I am aware that there may be a few out there) who singlehandedly changes the type of your question unjustified, please contact site staff. KudoZ editing rights can be revoked.
It is in everybody's best interest to resolve such individual issues, as such a behavior causes negative experiences toward the (otherwise working) system, and may cause people think abolishing the whole system is the best solution. If the change is by community vote, you may want to think about it a bit more, but you still have the same options for reversing that change (see the article about it).
Katalin
[Edited at 2009-07-18 16:05 GMT]
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Andy S
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:47
German to English
This has annoyed me for some time. I get the impression that one user in the German>English combination does this deliberately to wind people up.
Sometimes I have posted a Kudoz question on a word that is normally a fairly basic one but has a particular meaning in a given context. It has then been downgraded to non-PRO.
I find the implication that I don't understand basic vocab pretty insulting. It seems to me that the main function of Non-PRO for a few know-alls to wi... See more This has annoyed me for some time. I get the impression that one user in the German>English combination does this deliberately to wind people up.
Sometimes I have posted a Kudoz question on a word that is normally a fairly basic one but has a particular meaning in a given context. It has then been downgraded to non-PRO.
I find the implication that I don't understand basic vocab pretty insulting. It seems to me that the main function of Non-PRO for a few know-alls to wilfully and deliberately belittle other translators - an abuse of the system.
It feels like the translator is being downgraded to non-PRO when this happens. It is a mini professional death. ▲ Collapse
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 05:47
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I have been bothered by this classification for years | Jul 19, 2009 |
Andrew Stucken wrote:
This has annoyed me for some time. I get the impression that one user in the German>English combination does this deliberately to wind people up.
Sometimes I have posted a Kudoz question on a word that is normally a fairly basic one but has a particular meaning in a given context. It has then been downgraded to non-PRO.
I find the implication that I don't understand basic vocab pretty insulting. It seems to me that the main function of Non-PRO for a few know-alls to wilfully and deliberately belittle other translators - an abuse of the system.
It feels like the translator is being downgraded to non-PRO when this happens. It is a mini professional death.
Distinguishing between Pro and Non-Pro is just something meaningless.
| | | | | Well said, Katalin | Jul 20, 2009 |
The idea of the KudoZ system is to provide help after the translator has exhausted all other resources or did their best to find the answer on their own. This is not a kindergarten, but a place for professionals with research ability.
For some people, is is perhaps easier to ask a question than search for obvious solutions. Such questions should not be encouraged by offering points of equal status with hard-won points for obscure or difficult questions.
The Pro/Non-... See more The idea of the KudoZ system is to provide help after the translator has exhausted all other resources or did their best to find the answer on their own. This is not a kindergarten, but a place for professionals with research ability.
For some people, is is perhaps easier to ask a question than search for obvious solutions. Such questions should not be encouraged by offering points of equal status with hard-won points for obscure or difficult questions.
The Pro/Non-Pro system does an excellent job in rewarding answers that actually contribute to the general knowledge. It would be a big mistake to cancel it, among others, because rewarding the learners would flood the Kudoz scene with easy questions, would lower the general level of the site and would lower the motivation and interest of the "Proz".
BTW, the "votes" in this forum are in no way an indication of site users' position for or against reclassification, and IMO, this should not be a matter decided by random people who happen to have the time and inclination to read forum posts.
Sandra ▲ Collapse
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