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Kudoz "disagree" comment effect
Thread poster: Jose Toro

Jose Toro
Local time: 22:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
Oct 21, 2009

I am new at Proz, and started to contribute with translations of terms. I replied to a request where there were no previous answers. Pretty soon a colleague offered his own translation, but additionally entered a "disagree" comment in my posting; as I found out, that had the byproduct of also subtracting one point from my "score". I replied to the comment by giving my reasoning for the choice of term, still granting the possibility that the other colleague may be right, because many times it is the context that defines the "correct" answer, and ultimately it is the asker who decides this.

I am not familiar with Kudoz points, but I assume they represent some advantage for the contributor, especially if the original asker has not rejected my reply. I would think that under normal circumstances, if a member wants to post his contribution, he should provide it as such, without additionally subtracting a point from another contributor, unless a clear reasoning is given against the other's choice, which was not the case.

I won't make a big deal about this, but I think it warrants some clarification about the rules, which I kindly request here.

Greetings,

José
Tektrans


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Angela Dickson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:10
French to English
+ ...
how it works Oct 21, 2009

The asker is free to award the points to any answerer, regardless of how many agrees/disagrees the answer gets. If someone disagrees with you it is reasonable to expect them to give a reason, and if you don't agree with the reason then it's acceptable to argue your case.

The "4-1" or "5+3" (etc) that you see next to the names of the answerers are not a "score" and are not Kudoz points - in each case they are the sum of the answerer's confidence level plus the net agrees/disagrees.

If you think your answer is valid in the context provided by the asker, and yet someone is disagreeing with you, perhaps you need to support your answer with arguments/references. I don't think it is relevant that the person who disagreed also proposed his own answer.

[Edited at 2009-10-21 17:48 GMT]


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philgoddard
United States
Member (2009)
German to English
+ ...
I've done this sometimes Oct 21, 2009

It's more a question of etiquette than rules as such, but sometimes I've disagreed strongly with another person and also submitted a posting of my own.

I think this is a perfectly valid thing to do, provided you give proper reasons and you''re not just trying to boost your own "score". And sometimes it's more appropriate just to submit your suggestion and let other people make up their own minds.

Remember, also, that it's not a game with winners and losers - even though it bears many similarities to one!


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Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 23:10
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
The best starting point is reading the FAQ section on KudoZ Oct 21, 2009

tektrans wrote:

I won't make a big deal about this, but I think it warrants some clarification about the rules, which I kindly request here.


http://www.proz.com/faq/terminology_term_help.html


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Jose Toro
Local time: 22:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I understand it now Oct 21, 2009

Thank you Angela,

You have answered my question thoroughly. I did post a reasoned reply to the disagreeing comment, and I don't think it is worth to continue with that thread, where I suggested in my reply my assumption of the more precise context of the original term.

I am happy with having found out what the rules are, you have replied to my satisfaction. Thanks again.

José
Tektrans


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Jose Toro
Local time: 22:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks Oct 21, 2009

Thank you Katalin. Your suggestion is appreciated.

José
Tektrans


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Russell Jones  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:10
Italian to English
Take the rough with the smooth Oct 21, 2009

Hello Tektrans; welcome to the site.

The truth is that, although the rules have been refined over a 10 year period, they cannot hope to legislate for all human behaviour, from the most altruistic and generous to the most competitive and devious. Actually, that is one of the compelling things about "playing the KudoZ game".

As has often been said in the past, the asker who selects the preferred answer and awards the points is often not the person best qualified to make such judgements. The benefit to all of us - that makes it worth accepting such occasional (or even regular) injustices - is the legacy of the glossary, which retains all the answers and allows all of us to make an educated choice from all the answers to suit the context of our project, at a time of our choosing.

KudoZ may not always be "fair", but regular participants with the expertise to offer good suggestions do end up with the most points and, speaking from experience, this does result in being noticed by potential clients (even if that was not the aim or expectation).

Happy answering!


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AnneMarieG  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 05:10
Member (2009)
German to French
+ ...
"neutral" comment Oct 21, 2009

Hi,
when I intend to give an answer too, but want to comment on a colleague's answer I usually enter 'neutral' in order not to disturb the ranking of other colleagues' opinions. I think it is fairer.

Saludos y bienvenido!

Anne-Marie


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Jose Toro
Local time: 22:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Good feedback! Oct 21, 2009

Thank you all for your replies, which have been very enlightening; best thing is, I had the pleasure to meet some interesting and wise colleagues. I clarify that I didn't interpret the original comment as ill-motivated. Now I think I understand how Kudoz works.

Thank you again.

José
Tektrans


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ViktoriaG  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 23:10
English to French
+ ...
Attitudes Oct 21, 2009

Anne-Marie's method is, in my opinion, the soundest. You get to say what you want to say without offending anyone, and the asker gets some insight, too.

Now, I believe it is a bit rude to enter an answer and then hand out disagrees to others, unless the proposed answers are clearly wrong and your motivation is to help the asker avoid introducing mistakes into his/her translation. I think some people are way too much into using KudoZ to compete for jobs, and to such people, the end justifies the means. It isn't about helping anymore but about collecting points for better directory placement. I don't believe this was originally the point of KudoZ, and I think ProZ's aggressive promoting of directory placement didn't help.

Once, I had the misfortune of answering a question where one of the answerers distributed free, no obligation disagrees to all answers--except her own, naturally. Not content with bumping everyone on the list of answers, she attacked the language variants of people answering from different countries, even though several answerers kindly reminded her of the fact that no language variant was specified to begin with and that each answerer was simply contributing what they could. Her reaction was to keep defending her point of view in a very aggressive and disrespectful way. That, in my opinion, is a serious attitude problem.

Unfortunately, people with attitude problems are all over the place, and ProZ is no exception. My suggestion to you is to try not to take it personal and to blacklist (there is a feature here somewhere) users who seem to you to have an attitude problem. That way, you can at least avoid interacting with them. In case there is a question posted where one of the answerers is on your blacklist, you have nothing to lose by contacting the asker directly to help out.

All the best!


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Conchi Otaola
Spain
Local time: 05:10
Member (2008)
English to Spanish
+ ...
neutral option Oct 22, 2009

amgtraduction wrote:

Hi,
when I intend to give an answer too, but want to comment on a colleague's answer I usually enter 'neutral' in order not to disturb the ranking of other colleagues' opinions. I think it is fairer.

Saludos y bienvenido!

Anne-Marie


I agree with Anne-Marie and with Virginia. I think the best option is the neutral option and not to add a disagree, because we all know that there is not an only answer and sometimes it depends, apart from the context, on the country or region variant of the spoken language.
I think that some people gives disagrees in their own benefit and I have seen the same Virginia tells. If a person gives an answer I do not see the reason of giving disagrees as José mentions. They just may make a neutral comment or use the reference section to give explanations. That would be fairer in my opinion.
Bye everyone
Conchi


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B M-C  Identity Verified
Local time: 04:10
English to Spanish
Agree with Viktoria +1 Nov 2, 2009

Viktoria I am giving you a +1!

It's those attitudes that have put me off in the past from participating answering questions. I remember once someone disagreed with me and with everyone else who answered and took points away from everyone. It really annoyed me because the original poster of the question hadn't given any context and "both" answers could have been right depending on the how the term was being used, colloquially or within the field of natural sciences. I felt this person didn't have the right to "guess" the context and tell everyone they were wrong, particularly when, in my opinion of course, the opposite was perhaps a more likely use of that particular word.

Another issue is when people decide your answer is wrong because it's not a word they use in their country. I think this is only valid if the asker specifies exactly a country or a region, if they just say "Spanish" for example, then no one is wrong if they give examples from their own countries.


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Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 22:10
German to English
Confidence level Nov 2, 2009

Angela Dickson wrote:

The "4-1" or "5+3" (etc) that you see next to the names of the answerers are not a "score" and are not Kudoz points - in each case they are the sum of the answerer's confidence level plus the net agrees/disagrees.



And it is a punishable offense even to mention an answerer's confidence level, even though some PointZ hunters regularly select confidence level 5 – Highest, I am sure – for the purpose of elevating their own status in the race and might even disagree with previous answers for the same reason.

[Edited at 2009-11-02 18:16 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-11-02 18:16 GMT]


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Yaotl Altan  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 22:10
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Fairer Nov 2, 2009

amgtraduction wrote:

Hi,
when I intend to give an answer too, but want to comment on a colleague's answer I usually enter 'neutral' in order not to disturb the ranking of other colleagues' opinions. I think it is fairer.

Saludos y bienvenido!

Anne-Marie




Yes, it's fairer because it cancels the possibility of being tempted to bias subsequent Kudos. What tektrans has explained is what happens when a judge votes in his own trial.


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George Hopkins
Local time: 05:10
Swedish to English
Seriously Nov 2, 2009

Don't take the matter of points and being right or wrong too seriously. What can you or I do with a few more points?
It would seem that some proz participants would like to change our dictionaries, and there is a tendency to accept terms that are frequently used as though they were correct. My favourite is 'bilge pump' which nowadays is almost any pump that removes waste fluid.

Neutrality
An old friend of mine, with a keen sense of humour, once said 'If I was ever wrong, I would be the first person to notice'.


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