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New KudoZ rules (proposal)
Thread poster: xxxmediamatrix
xxxmediamatrix
Local time: 04:39
Spanish to English
+ ...
Dec 6, 2009

Suggestions based on frequent abuse:

No slogans.
If the source term or expression is a complete commercial slogan, post it as a job, not a Kudoz.

Source-language slogans are often the result of very highly paid work by PR specialists and usually cannot be ‘translated’. They need to be rebuilt from the bottom up in the target language/culture using the same detailed information as was available to whoever originated the slogan.

Posting slogans as Kudoz devalues the work of the originator, cheapens the translation profession and stops someone (maybe a colleague) from earning a decent living.

No Google (or similar) search page URLs
Simply posting the URL of a Google search results page is useless – what other users see if they click that link depends on how they have set up their browser (preferred languages or security settings, for example) and the results will change from one minute to the next – let alone what users may see if they click the link in the KOG several years later.

The only useful, long-term way to put Google results into the KOG is cut ‘n paste of meaningful content (i.e. quote from the text).

No tinyurl’s (or similar)
There is no indication of the source of these links and no self-respecting Prozian would ever want to click one without knowing where it will take them. They are known as a means of propagating viruses … or worse.

Like Google searches, they have short life-spans (linkrot). Proz.com has oooodles of empty Gbytes on its servers – the company doesn’t need this space-saving gadget any more than the rest of the community needs viruses or pornography.

****
What say others?

MediaMatrix


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Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:39
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
+ ...
These proposals seem to make sense; I have another one Dec 6, 2009

I've had the same thought about the slogan/marketing material, which often involves much more than a straightforward translation, and which is properly the bailiwick of highly paid creative specialists.

Another thing I would like to see is the discouraging of the "diarrhea approach" to answering Kudoz queries, whereby answerers cut and paste a page of Google or Yahoo results into the answer field, usually without any further comment. Such responses do not demonstrate any real engagement with or grasp of the posted term and are often not particularly helpful. In any case, if the point the Answerer wants to make has to do with frequency count on search engines, then the frequency count itself can simply be stated: This would save a good deal of space.

[Edited at 2009-12-06 11:26 GMT]


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philgoddard
United States
Member (2009)
German to English
+ ...
And another Dec 6, 2009

Each time someone submits a question, they should have to check "yes" or "no" to the following:

Have you provided adequate context, including the type of document and what comes before and after this word or phrase?
Have you looked in a dictionary? (I very politely asked someone this a few days ago, and got reprimanded by a moderator)
Have you researched this term on the internet?
Have you checked it is not already in the glossary?
Does it consist of more than ten words?
Does it include phrases like "in this context" or "see question"?

If everyone answered these honestly, it would reduce the number of questions by about 50%.

[Edited at 2009-12-06 03:24 GMT]


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philgoddard
United States
Member (2009)
German to English
+ ...
PS Dec 6, 2009

I don't see what's wrong with tinyurls. They're quite useful, and I can't see people posting fake links on ProZ just to attract people to virus-ridden sites.

And as for slogans: well, it depends. If you don't understand their full implications in the source language, then posting them is fine. But if it's a case of "I'm too lazy to think this through, and I want you all to do my work for me so I can claim the credit," that's a whole different kettle of fish.

[Edited at 2009-12-06 03:18 GMT]


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Pablo Bouvier  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:39
German to Spanish
+ ...
New KudoZ rules (proposal) Dec 6, 2009

Robert Forstag wrote:

I've had the same thought about the slogan/marketing material, which often involves much more than a straightforward translation, and which is properly the bailiwick of highly paid creative specialists.

Another thing I would like to see is the discouraging of the "diarrhea approach" to answering Kudoz queries, whereby answerers cut and paste a page of Google or Yahoo results into the answer field, usually without any further comment. Such responses do not demonstrate any real engagement or grasp of the posted term and are often not particularly helpful. In any case, if the point the Answerer wants to make has to do with frequency count on search engines, then the frequency count itself can simply be stated: This would save a good deal of space.

[Edited at 2009-12-06 01:13 GMT]


I agree with the topic of slogans translation. They must be catalogued not only like a simple translation, but as an additional creative work that must be paid as such.

As for to no put Google search results pages as answer, I do not agree. I have used it myself, for example to show how a local version of an expression is said. The problem is not Google, but the translators whose majority does not know ho to delimit searches in Google.

And, as for tiny URLs it is true that they last short time. But, they last just as any other one in ProZ. Many of usual URLs I quoted, are obsolete after a pair of months too. Not only that, but tiny URLs are quite useful, when the original URL is too long to put it as example in the answers, what at present happens three of every two times.

I believe that the use (or not) of the last two options is only a question of common sense.

[Editado a las 2009-12-06 03:44 GMT]


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adihway88
Local time: 14:39
English to Indonesian
+ ...
Other options maybe? Dec 6, 2009

I think, we'd better collect all idea first by brainstorming it to members and from that bunch of flowers, we could gathered best possible solution.

Best regards,
Adhi


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Gianni Pastore  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 09:39
Member (2007)
English to Italian
Agree on slogans Dec 6, 2009

I very much like the idea of a special section in Proz where to post marketing/advertising slogan which obviously require a very creative thinking. Each job poster would buy some kind of credit in order to post a question; when assigning Kudoz, a certain amount of that credit will be send automatically to the answerer chosen by the asker (via Paypal etc.).

Just an idea, anyway

G


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xxxmediamatrix
Local time: 04:39
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Clarification Dec 6, 2009

Pablo Bouvier wrote:
As for to no put Google search results pages as answer, I do not agree. I have used it myself, for example to show how a local version of an expression is said. The problem is not Google, but the translators whose majority does not know ho to delimit searches in Google.


My suggested rule about Google search URLs is aimed at eliminating answers in which the only 'explanation' is the URL that generates the search results, such as:
http://www.google.cl/search?hl=en&source=hp&q="Lost%20Chord"&aq=f&oq=

All that tells the asker is that when the answerer did his his/her search, in conditions about which we know very little, (s)he found something which (s)he thought might support his/her answer; and there's no guarantee (actually, it's rather unlikely) that if the asker clicks that link (s)he will see the same thing as what the answerer believes (s)he saw five minutes earlier.

I agree that an extract from the search results, containing several URLs and extracts from relevant text in the way Pablo mentions, thus:

The Lost Chord 24 May 2004 ... Sullivan composed The Lost Chord whilst watching at his brother Fred's bedside during his last illness. The manuscript is dated 13 January ...
math.boisestate.edu › ... › Arthur Sullivan › Songs & Ballads - Similar
Status Quo :: Raiders Of The Lost Chord:: Status Quo, Status Quo Bootlegs, Status Quo Liverecordings, Status Quo Videos, Status Quo DVD, Status Quo Photos, Trading items.
www.twelvebar.net/ - Cached - Similar

can be useful in the short term. I paste such extracts myself - but usually in support of my own explanation, not as a substitute.

But even then, if that useful Google information is to remain in the Glossary indefinitely, the answerer should go to the trouble of copying an extract from the ephemeral webtext (the document behind the URL) and pasting it as part of the answer, e.g.:

Edited quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lost_Chord
(Arthur) Sullivan composed The Lost Chord whilst watching at his brother Fred's bedside during his last illness. The manuscript is dated 13 January 1877 and Fred Sullivan died five days later.

The success of the song was immediate and stupendous. The song became particularly associated with Mrs. Ronalds who often sang it at society functions, and none other than the Prince of Wales was said to have remarked that he would travel the length of his future kingdom to hear her sing it.
Words by Adelaide A. Proctor. Published by Boosey & Co., 1877.

MediaMatrix

[Edited at 2009-12-06 11:57 GMT]


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Paul Cohen  Identity Verified
Greenland
Local time: 05:39
German to English
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I don’t think a ban on slogans is feasible Dec 6, 2009

I'm with you all the way on the slogans, mediamatrix. By allowing such questions, we are essentially shooting ourselves in the foot.

Unfortunately, I don’t think a ban on slogans is feasible. Where do we draw the line? Book titles and film titles are also jobs that require an inordinate amount of work, creativity and insider knowledge. What about clever headlines for articles, brochures, advertising blurbs, research papers and press releases? Should those be banned as well? How about the names of services and brand-name products?

I may be wrong, but I'm afraid that it would be almost impossible to come up with a workable definition of a 'commercial slogan' that would rein in the worst offenders in the KudoZ arena, like those who are hopelessly out of their depth translating demanding texts into a foreign language, and who constantly come up with mind-boggling marketing and advertising questions.

Besides, any proposal that could possibly reduce the amount of traffic to this site is not likely to be welcomed by those who have an interest in keeping it as profitable as possible.

Sorry to be such a wet blanket, mediamatrix!


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Paul Cohen  Identity Verified
Greenland
Local time: 05:39
German to English
+ ...
Not overly concerned about tinyurls Dec 6, 2009

I find tinyurls useful and I have no concerns about Prozians entering links that lead to virus-infested dens of iniquity – at least I haven’t noticed a development in that direction. It’s true that many of these space savers will one day lead to frustrating dead ends. That seems to me to be more of a problem for the KOG than for other KudoZ questions.

In any case, there are occasions when tinyurls are very helpful, particularly when responding to a ‘neutral’ comment or a ‘disagree’, where space is extremely limited.


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Sandra& Kenneth  Identity Verified
Israel
Local time: 10:39
Member (2009)
French to English
+ ...
Tinyurls have a very useful - and more rules... Dec 6, 2009

Tinyurls replace URLs with very long strings, which otherwise would be totally useless, as they would be simply be cut off.

Do you think that the following is preferable?
BTW, this is a totally legitimate Google books source.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3CZaJb4u_PoC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq="patrimoine%20fragile"%20"fragile%20heritage"&source=bl&ots=XNKYjeb4l-&sig=uEg2imJADXgrJ0EXrKN17FmlrAw&hl=en&ei=a6sbS9nQCqiUmwO99_DXAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q="patrimoine%20fragile"%20"fragile%20heritage"&f=false

New rules would make the life of KudoZ players more complicated and are not really necessary.
Slogans could perhaps be handled by moderators.
My two cents.


[Edited at 2009-12-06 13:54 GMT]


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Yaotl Altan  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 02:39
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Support Dec 6, 2009

I support mediamatrix and Robert proposals too.

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Alessandra Martelli  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 09:39
Member (2009)
English to Italian
+ ...
Thumbs up Dec 6, 2009

Agree with Mediamatrix and Robert.

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writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
I agree with mediamatrix's proposal and also suggest ... Dec 6, 2009

... putting the teeth back into the ruleZ pertaining to Askers.

With the squads of mods now active and ever so vigilant when it comes to removing/censuring anything said by colleagues to ask Askers to reveal what their own research has shown, what their own dictionaries reveal and what their own ideas are, why not diversify the mod policing activities and have them enforce the rules that were put there to make sure Askers also do their part and don't just sit back and let others do the work for them.
If Askers stick to all the rules as written, the titles, slogans and other similar marketing/advertising questions would have to disappear, since the rules state that Kudoz is for terms and the limit is 1 term per question.
I have always been against people posting slogans etc. because it amounts to picking colleague's brains then stealing their ideas and presenting them to the client as one's own. I agree that people struggling to write copy in a foreign language or target language natives struggling because the job is a step beyond them should post these "questions" as jobs. And they shouldn't be allowed as Kudoz questions at all.

And fwiw, just by seriously enforcing the Kudoz rules for asking (ie making Askers take some responsibility) , the list below will be taken care of immediately. So no 'new rules'-just apply the ones already there.

philgoddard wrote:

Each time someone submits a question, they should have to check "yes" or "no" to the following:

Have you provided adequate context, including the type of document and what comes before and after this word or phrase?
Have you looked in a dictionary? (I very politely asked someone this a few days ago, and got reprimanded by a moderator)
Have you researched this term on the internet?
Have you checked it is not already in the glossary?
Does it consist of more than ten words?
Does it include phrases like "in this context" or "see question"?

If everyone answered these honestly, it would reduce the number of questions by about 50%.


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Russell Jones  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:39
Italian to English
Pre-asking tick boxes Dec 6, 2009

philgoddard wrote:

Each time someone submits a question, they should have to check "yes" or "no" to the following:
Have you looked in a dictionary? (I very politely asked someone this a few days ago, and got reprimanded by a moderator)


There is a world of difference between the site requiring an answer to this question and an individual User doing so.
The first is a pre-condition (albeit unenforceable); the second amounts to a "Comment or insinuation concerning an ... asker's ... decision to post a certain question ..." (in contravention of site rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_answ/3.7#3.7).


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