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Suggested Kudoz changes
Thread poster: FX Fraipont

FX Fraipont  Identity Verified
Belgium
Local time: 11:49
Member (2007)
English to French
Feb 8, 2010

I have just seem one of my posts removed by a moderator because I infringed the rules - How childish! I was trying to suggest that the Kudoz rules were not adequate, and this was removed. (No need to repeat the rules, moderator, I know them).

What I did that was deemed unacceptable : I used the discussion area to introduce a linguistic discussion of one of the posted answers.

Here's my problem.

1. My comments were linguistic in nature ; I did not think they warranted a neutral or a disagree vote.

2. I think that translators who propose a translation should not be allowed to vote on the translations proposed by others: this is extremely unhealthy, since it makes people judges and parties at the same time. If I propose a translation, I would prefer to see it judged on its own merits by independent "outsiders" who have not posted a translation, rather than see it not voted down by a "competing" translator who has also posted a translation.

3. Since sometimes a linguistic discussion arises that concerns the ways the word/phrase is interpreted by different people, why can't we use the discussion area for this purpose?

I think it would these changes would improve the Kudoz section.

FX Fraipont


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Krzysztof Kajetanowicz  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 11:49
English to Polish
+ ...
. Feb 8, 2010

2. I think that translators who propose a translation should not be allowed to vote on the translations proposed by others: this is extremely unhealthy, since it makes people judges and parties at the same time. If I propose a translation, I would prefer to see it judged on its own merits by independent "outsiders" who have not posted a translation, rather than see it not voted down by a "competing" translator who has also posted a translation.


It's the asker who decides, mind you, as well as bearing most of the consequences of choosing the "wrong" answer. Not the answerers. Plus, the asker can see who has voted.

3. Since sometimes a linguistic discussion arises that concerns the ways the word/phrase is interpreted by different people, why can't we use the discussion area for this purpose?


I have never ever seen any objection from moderator, or anyone else for that matter, to a linguistic discussion of different phrases, especially those submitted. Maybe it's because the staffing of your language pairs is different. Just switch to Polish and you'll be happy


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AnneMarieG  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 11:49
Member (2009)
German to French
+ ...
Good point Feb 8, 2010

""2. I think that translators who propose a translation should not be allowed to vote on the translations proposed by others: this is extremely unhealthy, since it makes people judges and parties at the same time. If I propose a translation, I would prefer to see it judged on its own merits by independent "outsiders" who have not posted a translation, rather than see it not voted down by a "competing" translator who has also posted a translation.""

François-Xavier,
I think this is a very good suggestion; an answerer should not be able to vote 'against' another answerer, because s/he is biaised.
However, the 'neutral' botton allows to add a comment - this can be interesting; personally, I used the 'agree' booton a couple of times to co-answerers because I found his/her answer more suitable than mine.

Anne-Marie


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Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Double post

Claudia Alvis  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 05:49
Member
Spanish
+ ...
About point 2: KudoZ is not a competition. A case to abolish KudoZ brownies Feb 8, 2010

You have to remember that KudoZ is not a competition and it should not be a democratic process. This is, in my opinion, why the KudoZ system is so flawed. A person that's proposed an answer has more authority to express his/her opinion about an alternative answer, either because of experience, research, etc. Many people (of course not all) that do agree/disagree/vote neutral don't really take too much time to read the whole question or to consider all alternatives; many just want their browniz and vote even if they don't have a clue. I've seen so many times that the answers proposed are practically taken from dictionaries without any consideration towards the context and they're the most popular answers.

In many circumstances, 'disagree' is the most useful of all other options (agree and neutral) and I think it should be encouraged, specially to other answerers. One way to avoid abuse could be by means of moderation.

I'm one of the many 'disagree' advocates because I do search the KudoZ glossary. A few years ago, I wrote a post about it:

There have been a lot of discussions about this topic. I personally think that people are too 'cautious' (for the lack of a better word) about using the 'disagree' option, while others--and this is much worse, take those disagree's as personal attacks. It's never nice to get a 'disagree' but we're professionals here.

When it comes to making peer comments, we have 3 options: agree, neutral and disagree. And I think each one of those options have a legitimate function. So I don't understand why if a translation proposed is BLATANTLY wrong, you shouldn't disagree? Sometimes people start agreeing on the first answer or on the answer with the most agree's, even if the answer is wrong (for whatever reasons).

Imagine this scenario:
1. Somebody posts a wrong answer with lots of references. You know that the answer is wrong for the particular context or because the answerer didn't read the context, or because it's a common mistake. It's just dead wrong.
2. You've run across that term before, you've done the proper research so you're 100% positive that you know the correct answer, so you post it, even without references.
3. You DON'T disagree with the wrong answer or use the neutral button.
4. The asker chooses the wrong answer because of the number of references, agrees or because it 'sounds' better or because s/he doesn't know enough about the subject, and the term in entered in the glossaries.
5. A person finds the incorrect term in the KOG but since it has so many agrees and references, doesn't bother to read all the other proposed answers. (It shouldn't happen but it does, I've done it myself.)

"Keep it clean":
The KudoZ system is not there just to accumulate KudoZ points or to gain visibility. One of the best things about ProZ is the KOG Glossaries. And I'm sure we've all seen entries that shouldn't be there, and, IMO, one of the reasons this happens is because people here are too politically correct. I'm not saying that we should start disagreeing with every answer that might or could be wrong but we can't be so shy about disagreeing in certain circumstances. And if someone has disagreed with one answer, s/he shouldn't be denied the right to propose an answer.


The thread has several very useful opinions: www.proz.com/forum/kudoz/83999-dirty_tactics_peer_disagree_and_then_post_your_own_answer_question_mark_added_by_staff.html


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Scott Salvo
United States
Local time: 05:49
English to Portuguese
+ ...
My point of view on Kudoz Feb 8, 2010

On one question that I answered, someone answered differently and dissagreed with my responce and an ignorent comment about my "Portuguese" all be it in the end the grammar was incorrect, But the translation was slang to slang for young adults not grammaticaly correct . so I agree that if you answer you should not be able to disagree. Agree with another answer is great and it should automatically remove your answer from the board. Constructive comments or corrections and not sarcasim or ignorance should be monitored

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Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 11:49
English to Croatian
+ ...
And the asker? Feb 9, 2010

FX Fraipont wrote:


2. I think that translators who propose a translation should not be allowed to vote on the translations proposed by others: this is extremely unhealthy, since it makes people judges and parties at the same time.


By that logic, the asker is a student and a teacher with authority at once ( both roles in the same classroom). Not sure how healthy that is, frankly.



[Edited at 2010-02-09 01:32 GMT]


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Ildiko Santana  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 02:49
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...

MODERATOR
"Explanation" field Feb 10, 2010

Dear ProZ.com staff:

I would suggest either eliminating the "Explanation" field when submitting KudoZ answers, or setting a minimum character limit (at least 30) on this field. Alternatively, answers with no meaningful explanation could be marked as "Hidden" until satisfactory explanation is provided. This could be made clear for answerers on the main answer page with a note, "Your answer will remain hidden pending your entry in the "Explanation" field." Answers then will be time-stamped at the same time they are "UN-hidden."

All too often answerers (clearly just to reserve the first "time stamp" in their pathetic race for KudoZ points) submit a one-word or two-word answer but type " - " as their explanation, which is meaningless. Occasionally we see "I think" or "just guessing" in this field. While this sort of "explanation" is lacking any supporting knowledge on the answerers parts and is utterly useless for the asker, it can serve the answerer well when their answer is chosen based on either peer agreement or merely on the speed of submission. I don't believe the current system is fair to those answerers who do take their time to prepare, research, sufficiently explain and fact-check their suggestions, backing them with examples and source references (which should be standard practice).

Thank you for your consideration in advance.
Kind regards,
Ildiko'

[Edited at 2010-02-10 18:31 GMT]


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Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:49
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Minimum character limit won't solve the problem Feb 10, 2010

Instead of "-" you will see "------------------------------".


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Ildiko Santana  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 02:49
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...

MODERATOR
------------------------- Feb 10, 2010

Instead of "-" you will see "------------------------------".


How about those nice programmers taking care of such annoyances this way:
"must contain alphanumeric characters"
?

[Edited at 2010-02-10 20:01 GMT]

[Edited at 2010-02-10 20:01 GMT]


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Stéphanie Soudais  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 11:49
Member (2006)
English to French
explanation field Feb 10, 2010

Ildoko,

I am sure that this has been discussed before, and as Katalin points out, it will lead people to enter whatever they can to fill the blank.

Even if it "must contain alphanumeric characters", people can write "lkjsli zkjdliqsjlrh lknjlfk jkj" or "this is what I suggest as a translation" and other useless content.
I prefer people being honest with "just a guess".

Stéphanie


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Roel Verschueren  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 11:49
Member (2007)
English to Dutch
+ ...
No competition Feb 10, 2010

I don't know about other language pairs, but the English -> Dutch, French -> Dutch and German -> Dutch Kudoz questions are in fact handled (mostly) to satisfaction.
It is because most of my colleagues and I consider the Kudoz-game as a dialogue amongst professionals, where one day one contributor is more lucid and fast, another day other colleagues are taking the lead.

It is not a competition. Most of my professional friends do not contribute because of the points, it is a game of trying to be accurate, documented, sometimes original and refreshing in your approach, I have the impression we all learn from each other.

There are those people who never answer a question, never do research or try to help (even not use the discussion panel) but just agree with those icons in their language pair who seem to be always right.
Nobody is always right. There are always other linguistic, content driven nuances. I am a happy translator when I see a colleague formulating an answer that makes me wonder why I did not come up with it. And not every day is a good Kudoz day.
Roel


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Ildiko Santana  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 02:49
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...

MODERATOR
must be a cultural thing... Feb 10, 2010

... most of my colleagues and I consider the Kudoz-game as a dialogue amongst professionals, where one day one contributor is more lucid and fast, another day other colleagues are taking the lead.
It is not a competition. Most of my professional friends do not contribute because of the points, it is a game of trying to be accurate, documented, sometimes original and refreshing in your approach, I have the impression we all learn from each other.


Roel,
Thank you so much for sharing this. Certainly sounds like the ideal world of KudoZ.
Let's hope we can all get there one day, soon!
Ildiko'


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GILOU  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 11:49
Member (2002)
English to French
rather than see it not voted down by a "competing" translator Feb 22, 2010

I can understand there's a competition for jobs but for Kudoz, I can't see interest in competition....

[Edited at 2010-02-22 07:25 GMT]


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