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Voters for pro/non-pro should also provide an answer or peer comment
Thread poster: xxxjacana54
xxxjacana54  Identity Verified
Uruguay
English to Spanish
+ ...
Apr 17, 2010

Hello,

I've been thinking about this for some time now, wondering about the right attitude, and today I have a question of my own which is a good example:

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_spanish/cooking_culinary/3801539-temperature_for_red_meats.html

I initially got two answers, and one of them got a couple of agrees. I went to bed. This morning I found another very well documented answer, which differs substantially from the two previous ones. This answer now has five agrees, and one of the others has three.

Also, two votes for non-pro categorization have appeared, and I would love to know if they were put there before or after this third answer.

If these two colleagues think that this is a non-pro question, and they are fluent in both languages and —I presume— own dictionaries, why haven't they voted for any of the options or suggested an answer of their own?

My suggestion is that in order to vote a question pro/non-pro, users of the site should first either comment on one of the existing answers or suggest one of their own.



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Fiona Grace Peterson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 12:19
Member
Italian to English
Rather a pointless distinction Apr 17, 2010

My feeling is that the distinction PRO/Non-PRO is somewhat pointless in any case.

Lucia Colombino wrote:

why haven't they voted for any of the options or suggested an answer of their own?



Sometimes if I click on a question and see it already has five agrees, I don't bother adding my own voice to the choir, since adding more agrees becomes somewhat superfluous after a certain point. This may be the case with the two who voted PRO/Non-PRO to your question.


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writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
pro/non-pro nearly completely pointless now Apr 17, 2010

Agree with Fiona. Once upon a time a difficult/pro question really was a challenge and took professional knowledge and/or professional research skills to find a suitable solution. Nowadays anything harder than 'Happy Holidays' or 'I have a dog' is deemed "pro", which makes the whole categorisation system a joke.
How many agrees does a question need? One can judge the level without answering.
I have an off-topic question. In the example shown (http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_spanish/cooking_culinary/3801539-temperature_for_red_meats.html ), why is the the cooking temperature of meat listed in the 'art/literary' category?


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xxxjacana54  Identity Verified
Uruguay
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Hi writeaway (Re: Off-topic question). Apr 17, 2010

I was hoping to direct the question to a wide range of colleagues with hopefully a wide range of interests... My experience in using this site indicates that, at least in the English>Spanish pair, a large number of intelligent and well-read people with a good knowledge of the world have marked that field as "working". On the other hand, some time ago I classified a question as "technical" and it was sent to very few potential answerers. But may have made a mistake and I would be happy to have your suggestion of what category I should have chosen.



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Fiona Grace Peterson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 12:19
Member
Italian to English
Um... Apr 17, 2010

You should not direct a question to the subject field you think has the largest number of people working in it. The subject categories are there for a purpose, i.e. being able to search questions by subject field once these are archived.

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xxxjacana54  Identity Verified
Uruguay
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
more off-topic, and then I'll call it a day... Apr 17, 2010

Fiona, I am extraordinarily careful when I enter anything in the glossary... believe me, I make the changes I can in order to help other people. I am very aware of the usefulness of the Kudoz archive, and this week I had even had the pleasure of thanking someone for answers provided years ago.

To return to the original topic, maybe, as you say, the people who voted pro/non-pro thought that any more votes would be superfluous. I've often thought that way myself. Maybe that's what happened.

But I still think that, for what it's worth, the system could ask people to give provide an opinion before voting this way.


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Polangmar
Poland
Local time: 12:19
English to Polish
+ ...
One more plea for concurrent voting Apr 18, 2010

From time to time (quite) difficult questions become reclassified into non-PRO. It's very easy: it needs only three people (not understanding the problem/context or malicious or experts who don't see the difficulty), out of the big number of visitors in the first hours, to change the status. But gathering four votes out of the much smaller number of visitors in the later period, to reclassify the question once again into PRO, is virtually impossible (I guess people are generally reluctant to vote - it's also the reason why, on the other hand, a lot of very easy questions remain PRO).
That's why I think that a change in the procedure of voting would be much welcomed. I wrote about this in more detail here: http://tinyurl.com/yhwmnho .


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Noni Gilbert
Spain
Local time: 12:19
Member (2007)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Always have a clear reason Apr 18, 2010

I would never vote for a Proz/Non Proz change unless I had a very clear reason, and would be happy to provide it if given the opportunity.

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xxxjacana54  Identity Verified
Uruguay
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you for your comments Apr 19, 2010

Noni and Polangmar!



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Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 12:19
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Don't agree Apr 19, 2010

Although I understand your point of view, I don't quite agree that we should explain why we decide that a question is a non-pro. Quite simply, when any of us votes for reclassification, we do so in the belief that any bilingual person would know the right answer immediately.

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xxxjacana54  Identity Verified
Uruguay
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
That's not what I said, Tomás Apr 19, 2010

Tomás, my concern is slightly different...

Tomás, I have sometimes voted non-pro on that same belief too... But then I began to think from the point of view of the asker, or the person who uses the archive/glossary...

My suggestion is slightly different: before voting non-pro, people could be invited to provide an answer of their own (if should be easy, by definition) or to vote for one of the existing answers.

The reason is that it in some cases, such as this example I showed, very qualified colleagues feel very strongly that one of the differing solutions is the right one and other equally qualified colleagues feel just as strongly that the other solution is right. So in these cases it would be interesting to know the opinion of those who think it's an easy question.

I simply think that if voters for non-pro also voted on the content of the open question, the whole community might benefit.


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Eutychus  Identity Verified
Local time: 12:19
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
Why does it matter? Aug 6, 2010

I've resurrected this thread rather than start a new one.

I could see an argument for disqualifying questions on 'non-pro' grounds if, as in the old days, server space was at a premium. These days, I think it's to all intents and purposes limitless.

If someone posts what seems to be an obvious term, the fact that it's obvious will be, well, obvious to the discerning reader. They don't need others' opinion that it's "non-pro" to make a judgement. In fact they probably won't be searching KudoZ for it anyway.

To the non-discerning reader, well, what does it matter? They've found an answer on KudoZ and may well return.


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Sandra& Kenneth  Identity Verified
Israel
Local time: 13:19
Member (2009)
French to English
+ ...
It matters. Aug 6, 2010


Why does it matter?

If someone posts what seems to be an obvious term, the fact that it's obvious will be, well, obvious to the discerning reader. ... In fact they probably won't be searching KudoZ for it anyway.


This is not the point.

I could of course, mention that the entire KudoZ system and related directory structure is built on Pro points and therefore this distinction is not only necessary, but in fact crucial.

In addition, it's a good indicator. No shining CV can beat the number of asked non-Pro questions in a person's profile.
FWIW.


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Eutychus  Identity Verified
Local time: 12:19
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
If it matters, then the original post title should apply Aug 7, 2010

Fair point, but if the option exists then I think voters, particularly for "non-pro", should supply some decent arguments. Just because one person thinks "that's not a pro question" does not mean that there cannot be professional level issues at stake. Sometimes it can reveal as much about the limits of their professional expertise as about its extent

An instance has come up of this issue since I posted previously on this thread, here*.

On the face of it, a straightforward term has been asked, but the various answers and ensuing discussion demonstrate, to my mind, that the question is worthy of a professional discussion. To date, no grounds for the vote for it to be non-pro have been supplied.

No shining CV can beat the number of asked non-Pro questions in a person's profile.
So a great way of doing down a rival is simply to vote all the questions they ask "non-pro"? What's to stop anybody doing this?

[*tinyurl link because BBcode doesn't like the % character]


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Eutychus  Identity Verified
Local time: 12:19
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
Example from one of my two questions asked rated "non-pro" Aug 7, 2010

Sangro wrote:
In addition, it's a good indicator. No shining CV can beat the number of asked non-Pro questions in a person's profile.
FWIW.
Having looked, I am happy to report that out of over 200 questions I've asked to date, only 2 have been rated non-Pro (and if anybody cares, over 95% of the questions I've answered have retained "pro" status, but apparently only I know that)

I invite folks to take a look at one of those I asked which got classified as non-Pro; it's here. Both the people who voted non-pro argued (at some length) that I was mistaking a proper noun for a technical term: as it turned out once the client supplied more details (some time after the question was first asked), it was indeed a very specific reference to a kind of glass.

I'd long forgotten this had been classified as non-pro, but it illustrates some of the problems with the "pro/non-pro" ratings.


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