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Pro/non-Pro
Thread poster: Susanna Garcia

Susanna Garcia  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:51
Italian to English
+ ...
Dec 27, 2010

There appears to be a lack of understanding as to what is a Pro question on the part of certain posters who are clearly permanently out of their depth and reliant on others to complete work on their behalf. Answerers are requesting clarification regarding the choice and being ignored. Should Moderators not intervene without the need for a support ticket to point out:
2.1 (Guideline)/2.2/2.3 in particular.
Surely persistently ignoring these points requires some kind of action?
Yes, I know we've been here before but the level of question asked as Pro is just ridiculous - I had GCSE students who could have answered.


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Buck
Netherlands
Local time: 17:51
Dutch to English
I agree wholeheartedly Dec 27, 2010

I am very often amazed at some of the questions in my language pair initially posted as PRO. Many many of these can be answered using a basic, good dictionary or off the top of one's head. I don't know if the askers are lazy or inexperienced (although some of them list several years of translations experience and ask very basic questions) or are even qualified to translate in the relevant language pair.
I have stopped answering such questions and feel compelled to vote Non-pro if I feel the level of the question does not justify the Pro qualification (i.e. a bi-lingual individual or someone with a basic dictionary could answer the question). Assigning PRO to a question that is very simple undermines the purpose of pro-level points. Outsources who select an individual based on the number of pro-level points may be in for a surprise if they learn that the pro-level answers include very basic terms.
I sometimes wonder whether the asker even has dictionaries or knows how to search using the Internet. So, that was my two cents' worth.


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Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 16:51
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
The wording soesn't help Dec 27, 2010

PRO - a question that is suitable for professional translators
Non-PRO - a question that can be answered by any bilingual person without the aid of a dictionary

Implication: something that requires you to open a dictionary is a Pro question.

Now why should I, a fellow professional translator, have to open MY dictionary so that the Askers can avoid having to open THEIR dictionaries? And why should such terms be clogging up the Glossary time and time again?

Suggestion: change the definition of a Non-Pro question to read "a question that can be answered by any bilingual person or with the aid of a general bilingual dictionary.

A second example of wishy-washy wording: "Help translators help you: providing context for the term for which you are seeking help is a valuable tool for potential answerers."

It is not just a "valuable tool" - it's ESSENTIAL!

I wouldn't actually class myself as bilingual (French is still a foreign language for me even though I've lived in France for 15 years) and I have to look things up in the dictionary and on the internet. I would never expect fellow translators on ProZ to do it for me. A KudoZ question should be a last resort, or maybe penultimate as I prefer to cover all sources before taking a query back to the client.


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Aude Sylvain  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 17:51
English to French
+ ...
wording Dec 27, 2010

Sheila Wilson wrote:

Suggestion: change the definition of a Non-Pro question to read "a question that can be answered by any bilingual person or with the aid of a general bilingual dictionary.


Fully agree - since the current definition keeps being referred to to explain why basic questions, which should not even be asked on ProZ in the first place, are accepted as pro.


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Angie Garbarino  Identity Verified
Local time: 17:51
Member (2003)
French to Italian
+ ...
Agree Dec 27, 2010

Sheila Wilson wrote: I would never expect fellow translators on ProZ to do it for me. A KudoZ question should be a last resort, or maybe penultimate as I prefer to cover all sources before taking a query back to the client.


Yes, same here, besides I am under the impression that some people do not even care to click on (for example) www.wordreference.com

Happy holidays!


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writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
There is a broader, more professional definition of non-pro Dec 27, 2010

Imo, it would be very beneficial to Proz as a site if the following definition were referred to and not the dumbed-down version found in the FAQ. This is much more in line with the original site definition of difficult/easy questions. Easy questions were those that could be answered by any translator and difficult questions were those that needed to be answered by a specialist in the field.

There’s also a category (‘non-PRO’) reserved for questions that don’t require the skills of a professional.
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/1697917/p20-proz-22-f-pdf-january-21-2010-3-16-pm-305k?da=y



[Edited at 2010-12-27 13:11 GMT]


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Daniel Weston  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:51
French to English
+ ...
Wholeheartedly Agree Dec 27, 2010

Prof. Angie G. wrote:

Sheila Wilson wrote: I would never expect fellow translators on ProZ to do it for me. A KudoZ question should be a last resort, or maybe penultimate as I prefer to cover all sources before taking a query back to the client.


Yes, same here, besides I am under the impression that some people do not even care to click on (for example) www.wordreference.com

Happy holidays!



I am always amazed at the particular asker in question here - it seems like the asker doesn't want to take the time to look for simple answers but would rather rely on others to do it. I'm with Sheila - I always try to find my answers through research and study. When I am totally and completely stumpped is when I finally ask on Kudoz.

Happy New Year!

[Edited at 2010-12-27 12:43 GMT]


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Laurent KRAULAND  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 17:51
French to German
+ ...
Last resort... Dec 27, 2010

Sheila Wilson wrote:

A KudoZ question should be a last resort, or maybe penultimate as I prefer to cover all sources before taking a query back to the client.


Indeed.
Now there should be some serious questions about what KudoZ has become.


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Inga Petkelyte  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 16:51
Lithuanian to Portuguese
+ ...
Stopped Even Looking Dec 27, 2010

Dear Susanna,

I am wondering about the same issue almost since I subscribed to Pro KudoZ. "Pro" questions at a high-school-student level just litter my inbox; very often I simply delete them without having a glance at them.

Funny thing: moderators as the best watchdogs block comments here in threads where not even a name of the asker is mentioned but they allow wasting everyone's time with with questions of shameless peers (well, I ranted out...:) )

A pity, such practice closes the door for those who really need help with real Pro terms. For, I conclude from previous discussions, there are many translators that turned to ignore KudoZ in general. Just because of such reasons.


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Angie Garbarino  Identity Verified
Local time: 17:51
Member (2003)
French to Italian
+ ...
Sure.... Dec 27, 2010

writeaway wrote:
Easy questions were those that could be answered by any translator and difficult questions were those that needed to be answered by a specialist in the field.


Provided that said specialist is working in that language pair, (that is, he/she understands the source) as there is the risk of a total misunderstanding of the source.

This happened in a recent question and it also happened that someone not specialized in the field and NOT working in that pair "agreed" just because (reason of the agree) he/she was confident on the responder, isn't it unethical?


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Angie Garbarino  Identity Verified
Local time: 17:51
Member (2003)
French to Italian
+ ...
Exactly Dec 27, 2010

Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
Indeed.
Now there should be some serious questions about what KudoZ has become


See my post above, in 8 years I have never seen a situation like that.



[Edited at 2010-12-27 19:47 GMT]


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Susanna Garcia  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:51
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
A chi lo dici! Dec 27, 2010

Prof. Angie G. wrote:

Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
Indeed.
Now there should be some serious questions about what KudoZ has become


See my post above, in 8 years I have never seen a situation like that.



[Edited at 2010-12-27 19:47 GMT]


We've been trying to get rules/guidelines amended for some time now but are repeatedly stonewalled. I'm hoping to draw the various threads together at some point to rationalise the opinions expressed if that's ok.
Interestingly enough, one of the main posters has apparently had an epiphany about the discrepancy in asked to answer ratio and has started answering.


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Sarah Elizabeth
Italy
Local time: 17:51
Italian to English
agree that pro/non-pro need to be more intelligently defined Dec 28, 2010

Sheila Wilson wrote:

PRO - a question that is suitable for professional translators
Non-PRO - a question that can be answered by any bilingual person without the aid of a dictionary

Implication: something that requires you to open a dictionary is a Pro question.

Now why should I, a fellow professional translator, have to open MY dictionary so that the Askers can avoid having to open THEIR dictionaries?

...

Suggestion: change the definition of a Non-Pro question to read "a question that can be answered by any bilingual person or with the aid of a general bilingual dictionary.


Although instead of "general bilingual dictionary" I would write "good bilingual dictionary".

In scarcely seven months of membership, I have seen more instances than I can count of KudoZ questions that could have been answered quickly through the use of a top-level, non-specialist bilingual dictionary. At the very least, posters to the Non-PRO category should be expected to have consulted a good bilingual dictionary. Help those who help themselves....

(My mother was definitely of the "look it up yourself" variety and I will be forever grateful to her for this gift.)


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Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 16:51
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Agreed: a good bilingual dictionary Dec 28, 2010

Sarah Elizabeth Cree, PhD wrote:
instead of "general bilingual dictionary" I would write "good bilingual dictionary".


You're right, of course, Sarah Elizabeth. One of those pocket-sized ones wouldn't answer 100% of non-Pro questions, but I was assuming that a professional translator would have a GOOD general bilingual dictionary plus access to several paper or electronic references giving specialist terminology in both source and target languages.

Basically, I'm saying that anything that can be found easily should be found.

On the other hand, there are multi-word terms that are not easy to look up in dictionaries and may not actually be clear to native speakers not living in their home country, even though they are everyday terms for non-native inhabitants. What I mean is, there are new French terms that I'm very familiar with as a British expat in France, which a French person living abroad may not have heard of. I know my daughter who stayed in England comes out with some strange things! I'm perfectly happy to classify such terms as Pro as they can be difficult to find and have to be "experienced".


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Beatriz Ramírez de Haro  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 17:51
Member (2008)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Surveys Dec 28, 2010

In case it helps, I just discovered and completed 2 surveys from the home page, and suggested they pay attention to the proposals in this thread.
The more feedback we give them, the better.

Please take a moment to complete two brief surveys on the ProZ.com KudoZ term help system. Your feedback as a ProZ.com member is appreciated.
General survey on the KudoZ term help system »
Survey on KudoZ quality assessment »





[Edited at 2010-12-29 21:29 GMT]


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