Answerer can vote another answerer who offered a translation to the same question, is this fair?
Thread poster: Tjasa Kuerpick

Tjasa Kuerpick  Identity Verified
Slovenia
Local time: 18:56
Member (2006)
Slovenian to German
+ ...
Mar 2, 2011

I realized that answerers have the permission to give positive or negative points to the same kudoz request to which they offered a translation. Do you think that this is fair? Would it not better, to disallow an participating answerer to exclude from voting other repliers of the same Kudoz question?
On the one hand this gives everyone the possibility to participate in discussion, but on the other hand this practise could also tempt to give negative points, in order to promote his/her own question, which is an unfair play.


 

Stéphanie Soudais  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 18:56
Member (2006)
English to French
Older thread Mar 2, 2011

Hello Tjasa,

You might find some answers in http://www.proz.com/forum/kudoz/83999-dirty_tactics_peer_disagree_and_then_post_your_own_answer_question_mark_added_by_staff.html

Stéphanie


 

Amel Abdullah  Identity Verified
Jordan
Arabic to English
+ ...
Often necessary to disagree Mar 2, 2011

Whenever I answer a KudoZ question, I usually look at the other answers and offer my input, either agreeing or disagreeing. I do not disagree to make other people look bad or lose points. I also do not participate in KudoZ for the sake of accumulating points.

If I do happen to disagree with another answer, it is because I genuinely feel the answer is wrong and am keen to help the asker understand why I feel the way I do. If I simply ignore a wrong answer and no one else happens to disagree, then the asker may be left believing that all the answers presented are equally correct.

Further, it may happen that I disagree with an answer and do not post my own answer until later (after I have thought more about the question). Preventing members from doing both (answering and disagreeing with other people's answers) means that participation in KudoZ will probably become less spontaneous.

I will say this, however. If someone disagrees with a particular answer, he/she should be courteous enough to explain the disagreement.


 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:56
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
It is not "voting" Mar 2, 2011

You can agree or disagree with a suggestion, that's all. Or, you can post a neutral comment. It is not "voting" or "giving points".
The only thing that makes it look like points is the counter that displays the number of agrees and the number of disagrees as a single figure, and if there are more disagrees, the number becomes negative.
Limiting agreeing/disagreeing with another answer to those who don't post an answer (as you suggest) would be detrimental to the system, as the goal is to help the asker, and the peer comments on the proposed translations are helpful for the asker.

Perhaps a cosmetic change, where a thumbs-up and a thumbs-down icon counter is displayed separately (I think YouTube has it like that) would help removing the "negative points" image?

Katalin


 

Ambrose Li  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 12:56
Chinese to English
+ ...
Anything can be abused Mar 2, 2011

I do think it is fair, provided that you do it fairly. Anything can be abused, so while disagreeing solely to increase your chance of having your own answer selected is certainly unfair, if someone has provided an answer that is clearly wrong, I think—at least in theory—it is in everyone’s interest to disagree.

That said, whether disagreeing actually accomplishes anything in practice is a different matter. I find it useless to explain my disagreement to certain answerers; in these cases I just wish that the asker is clueful enough to sort out the good answers from the bad.


 

philgoddard
United States
Member (2009)
German to English
+ ...
I beg to differ Mar 2, 2011

Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:

You can agree or disagree with a suggestion, that's all. Or, you can post a neutral comment. It is not "voting" or "giving points".


It IS voting, except the "winner" isn't necessarily the person who gets the most votes - though it often is.

I think it depends on the way in which it's done. It's one thing to disagree with someone else's answer and then offer your own, another to disagree without stating a reason, either to improve your own score or in pursuit of a vendetta.


 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:56
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Disagree cannot be posted without an explanation Mar 3, 2011

philgoddard wrote:
It's one thing to disagree with someone else's answer and then offer your own, another to disagree without stating a reason, either to improve your own score or in pursuit of a vendetta.


Unlike Agrees, Disagrees cannot be posted without an explanation. The explanation should be linguistic, otherwise it is against the rules and should be removed.
Katalin


 

Michal Glowacki  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 18:56
Member (2010)
English to Polish
+ ...
disagreeing Mar 3, 2011

I can see why you might think it's unfair. However, as it's been mentioned - the agrees and disagrees are supposed to guide the asker towards the most suitable answer.

Personally, if I don't agree with the answer but it's not grossly wrong - I just post my proposal as a separate answer. If the answer is plain wrong, misleading or really stupid - I disagree, even if my own answer is there as well. It's just that there's a chance that the other person has given a really bad answer but it sounds plausible.


 

Sushan Harshe
India
Local time: 22:26
English to Hindi
+ ...
agree or disagree Mar 3, 2011

In my view; you should not use agree/not agree, if you are answering the question. You can put your view about another answers in your response, also you can put a discussion entry.

If you are not putting your view/answer then only you should rate the given answers.

Regards,

Sudarshan


 

Cezar GRINEA  Identity Verified
Romania
Local time: 19:56
Japanese to Romanian
+ ...
Posting another answer is ... Mar 3, 2011

... in itself, the expression of the fact that one does not entirely agree with any of the answers posted previously.

In this respect one doesn't have to actually click the "disagree" button unless the answer he/she is disagreeing with is bluntly wrong or plainly stupid. In which case a short explanation, or at least a link to a conclusive Web-site, would be a must.

Personally I would definitely post my answer, try to post references or start a discussion, and I would stay away from the "disagree" button. There are enough colleagues on this site whose opinion I trust, and their feedback is most valued.

Pressing "disagree" just to discredit an answerer is unprofessional and such behaviour can be spotted easily, so I wont bother talking about it.

And YES, I do consider that any answerer should have the opportunity to post further comments. I happened to give an answer that was too generic (due to lack of context) than "agreed" with another answerer who subsequently gave a more specific suggestion.


 

Tjasa Kuerpick  Identity Verified
Slovenia
Local time: 18:56
Member (2006)
Slovenian to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you for your contribution Mar 3, 2011

I am certainly aware that my question is not easy to answer. I started from my own point of view, as I would never agree or disagree to any other answer of the same question. Instead, I would rather leave a notice, remark, or information in the discussion field to the poster of the Kudoz question, which would help the poster of the question at his decision which of the offered question is right or suits him best, as he alone knows the content.

On the other hand the Kudoz system on Proz is programmed the way that the answer to which two people agree is automatically selected as the right answer. In this respect, this could be easily manipulated by such a manner, if he or she is tempted to act unprofessional (which of course does not mean that everyone who contributed an answer and was disagreeing to another answer acts unprofessional)

Therefore, the comments by colleagues, who are specialized in the field of the question, can be regarded as more valuable, especially if a provided answer could be improved, and disagree if the answer is absolutely wrong or unreasonable.

With regard to the fact that one can add reference, I would like to remind you, that many internet resources are not reliable and even wrong. Thus giving such reference is absolutely no guarantee, that the term found somewhere on the web is correct, just because it is written there. "Paper is patient", so are websites. Sure, it is certainly highly important where from you have picked up your reference. If it is from a specialist page, the probability that the answer is correct is much higher. One should as well be careful if a certain page has been translated, the translated term might be a suggestion, without notifying the reader that it has to be regarded as such.


 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:56
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
A few clarifications Mar 3, 2011

There were a few comments in this thread that seems to stem from misunderstandings.
Sudarhsan wrote:
In my view; you should not use agree/not agree, if you are answering the question. You can put your view about another answers in your response, also you can put a discussion entry.


No, you cannot. According to the KudoZ rules, the only place you can comment on another answer is the Peer Comment field.
Here is the relevant rule:
3.4 The only acceptable means of commenting on another's answer is by using the peer comment feature. Using the discussion area, the answer posting form or the answer explanation box to comment on another's suggestions is not allowed.

http://eng.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_answ/3.4#3.4

Tjasa Kuerpick wrote:
I would never agree or disagree to any other answer of the same question. Instead, I would rather leave a notice, remark, or information in the discussion field to the poster of the Kudoz question, which would help the poster of the question at his decision which of the offered question is right or suits him best, as he alone knows the content.

It is OK as long as you observe the rules about what could be posted in the discussion field, specifically KudoZ rule 3.4 (see above), and also 3.6 (No attempt may be made to influence other's decisions.)
http://eng.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_answ/3.6#3.6

Tjasa Kuerpick wrote:
the Kudoz system on Proz is programmed the way that the answer to which two people agree is automatically selected as the right answer.

No, this is not correct. The asker is the one who picks one answer that he/she considers the most helpful (which is not necessarily the "right" answer).
The only time automatic selection is attempted by the system is when the asker does not close the question for a long time (2 weeks, I think), or intentionally opts for the "community grading" option. In my experience, most questions are "graded" manually by the askers, although it may be different in your language pair.
Here is more info on these two topics:
http://eng.proz.com/faq/2731#2731
http://eng.proz.com/faq/terminology_term_help/kudoz/asking.html#can_i_grade_my_question_less_than_24_hours_after_posting_it_

I hope this clarifies a few things.
Katalin

[Edited at 2011-03-03 14:53 GMT]


 

Annamaria Amik  Identity Verified
Local time: 19:56
Romanian to English
+ ...
Limiting participation is counterproductive Mar 3, 2011

Tjasa Kuerpick wrote:

I realized that answerers have the permission to give positive or negative points to the same kudoz request to which they offered a translation. Do you think that this is fair? Would it not better, to disallow an participating answerer to exclude from voting other repliers of the same Kudoz question?
On the one hand this gives everyone the possibility to participate in discussion, but on the other hand this practise could also tempt to give negative points, in order to promote his/her own question, which is an unfair play.


I don't think it's unfair. Indeed one should not abuse of the disagree button, but just think about this situation: an answerer posts a really stupid answer, but you know the correct answer. That other answer is so plainly incorrect that you feel you MUST warn others about this. If commenting and answering were mutually exclusive, you would have to choose between providing the correct answer and warning the asker/colleagues. If you don't express your disagreement, others might be misled. If you post the correct answer without having the chance to disagree with the incorrect one, it will just look like "another possible solution".
I did see many situations where it was indeed absolutely necessary to point out a common error AND give the correct answer. Posting the correct answer in the comment field next to the disagreement would just make others use it and post iticon_smile.gif It did happen a few times that people simply used another contributor's suggestion from the discussion field and posted it as if they came up with it in the first place...


 

María Eugenia Wachtendorff  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 13:56
English to Spanish
+ ...
We are professional translators - What about fair play? Mar 4, 2011

This thread really gave me the creepsicon_frown.gif

Of course we can agree and/or disagree with other answerers to the same question. There are cases when several answers are possible, and we should recognize this fact. As to wrong answers, I think it is absolutely necessary and healthy to disagree, provided we do so respectfully and explaining our linguistic or technical points of view.

Kudoz should not be regarded as a sports championship. We are linguists helping each other!

If an answerer thinks that s/he is being exposed as ignorant or merely proven wrong by their peers' disagreements, they have the option to hide that answer. On the other hand, anyone who thinks a peer is disagreeing in an unfair way can call a moderator to the question.

Happy translatingicon_smile.gif


P.S.: Askers should be able to discriminate between right and wrong answers. I have seen many cases where the only answer that got neither agrees nor disagrees was chosen as the right one.

[Edited at 2011-03-04 04:33 GMT]


 


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