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"see below" answer. Is it a fair play?
Thread poster: Katerina O.

Katerina O.  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
English to Russian
+ ...
Dec 23, 2011

It's about such answers as SEE BELOW, SEE EXPLANATION, or in my pair СМ., СМ. НИЖЕ.

I think it gives a better visibility or prominence to an answer as it stands out of the rest. There are answerers who use it quite often too. And I've noticed that sometimes when there are many answers to one questions, the "see below" answer gets more agrees.

It kind of forces you to read the explanation and thus pay more attention to that particular answer, while you may skip explanations to the rest. It's actually MORE EFFECTIVE than just typing the answer in ALL CAPS.

Well, I don't think such answers should be allowed at all. But maybe I'm missing something and they are all good?


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Russell Jones  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:10
Italian to English
Site Rules Dec 23, 2011

This practice is contrary to site rule: http://www.proz.com/siterules/kudoz_general/1.4#1.4

"Glossary form must be maintained. Draft glossaries are generated automatically from KudoZ questions and answers. For this reason, expressions such as "see below", "in this context", etc., must not be entered in the boxes provided for terms, either when posting source terms or proposing translations. Question marks, quote marks, unnecessary capitalization and anything else that would not be found in a dictionary, should not be entered. Translations entered for glossary-building KudoZ must include the translated term, a definition and at least an example of use, all in the corresponding target language."

Such answers should be hidden by Moderators.

All capital letters is also a breach of rule: http://www.proz.com/siterules/general/5#5

"Uppercase should not be overused. Use lowercase letters unless uppercase is required. Posting in all capital letters is analogous to shouting."

All users are welcome to draw Moderators' attention to such infringements.


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Katerina O.  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
English to Russian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I knew there was something wrong with that) Dec 23, 2011

Thank you. Though the motivation in the rule is different from what I was saying...
Now I wonder why such answers are so widely used...


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Andrei Yefimov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 00:10
English to Russian
+ ...
fair play Dec 23, 2011

Sometimes you might need to translate the whole sentence to justify your answer, and it is just not possible to squeeze your translation into the space provided. Let's not forget we deal with language, not timber.

Besides, if, say, you enter a poor translation titled 'see below', I don't think it will help you to get points.

[Edited at 2011-12-23 13:53 GMT]


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Katerina O.  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
English to Russian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
That's what the explanation box for, isn't it? Dec 23, 2011

Andrei Yefimov wrote:

Sometimes you might need to translate the whole sentence to justify your answer, and it is just not possible to squeeze your translation into the space provided.


[Edited at 2011-12-23 13:53 GMT]


That's what the explanation box for, isn't it? - to justify your answer


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Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:10
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
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Agree with Andrei Dec 23, 2011

There are simply instances in which the suggested answer needs to be contextualized in order to make sense.

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Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:10
Hebrew to English
Agree Dec 23, 2011

Andrei Yefimov wrote:

Sometimes you might need to translate the whole sentence to justify your answer, and it is just not possible to squeeze your translation into the space provided. Let's not forget we deal with language, not timber.

Besides, if, say, you enter a poor translation titled 'see below', I don't think it will help you to get points.

[Edited at 2011-12-23 13:53 GMT]


Whilst I understand the site rule and the reason it exists, I agree with Andrei. There are instances where putting a neat concise translation in the little box at the top just isn't feasible.

There are times when an asker fully understands each and every word in a sentence but is having trouble understanding how they combine in a sentence, understanding the whole.

In addition, if the question is more to do with grammar than vocabulary then the above rule becomes a bit tricky to adhere to. I agree that it - (using things such as "see below") - shouldn't be abused, but language isn't so easy or simplistic to constrain to a single word or phrase every time.

Personally, the best answer (in my opinion) will always get my vote, regardless of what is written in the top box...and I'm not convinced people will agree to an answer simply because of a so-called "catchy" headline. ...

If anything, I always view a "see below" type answer with a more critical eye, because I feel the answerer needs to justify making me read their (usually long) explanation. If they manage to get my "agree" in the end, then they usually deserve it as I believe it is the right answer/most helpful answer.

[Edited at 2011-12-23 15:00 GMT]


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David Wright  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 23:10
German to English
+ ...
Obviously I have misunderstood something Dec 23, 2011

I thought the idea was to give assistance to and obtain it from other translators. I would feel that if "see below" or the like is regarded by the answerer as the best approach, then he / she should use it. I doubt that others agree with an answer just because it's in this format, but more likely because it happens to be the best answer. I have occasionally used this approach because there was no simple answer to the question.

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Birgit Richter  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:10
Member (2006)
English to German
+ ...
"see below" answers Dec 23, 2011

... are a no-no in my opinion. Plus Proz.com rules say they shouldn't be used. It should be possible to stick to the glossary format, i.e. provide a target language term, of course always with an explanation why it is appropriate in the given context.

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Sybille  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 23:10
Member (2003)
English to German
+ ...
"see below" answers Dec 23, 2011

I second Ty's opinion


If anything, I always view a "see below" type answer with a more critical eye, because I feel the answerer needs to justify making me read their (usually long) explanation. If they manage to get my "agree" in the end, then they usually deserve it as I believe it is the right answer/most helpful answer.



and can't see why answers given with a title "see below" should be preferred in choosing as the best ones, quite contrary to that. In some cases it serves no purpose to write one (two/three) words only into the "answer" box.


Sybille


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Andrei Yefimov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 00:10
English to Russian
+ ...
to reiterate Dec 23, 2011

Katerina O. wrote:

Andrei Yefimov wrote:

Sometimes you might need to translate the whole sentence to justify your answer, and it is just not possible to squeeze your translation into the space provided.


[Edited at 2011-12-23 13:53 GMT]


That's what the explanation box for, isn't it? - to justify your answer


'To justify' here means to show an asker how your translation behaves in the given context, not to provide a reference. And sometimes it is simply not doable without translating the whole sentence, in which case you tend to run out of space.

[Edited at 2011-12-23 16:50 GMT]


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Tina Vonhof  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 15:10
Member (2006)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Fair play - why? Dec 23, 2011

Why would you think it is not fair play? Is Kudoz a sport with winners and losers? Isn't it the case that we all try to help the asker in the best way we can? If two or more answers (or versions) are possible depending on the situation, would it be "fair play" to enter only one of them?

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Jack Doughty  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:10
Member (2000)
Russian to English
+ ...
Occasionally useful. But why the glossary rule? Dec 23, 2011

I agree with those who think some such answer is occasionally the only way to say anything which makes sense.
But I am more concerned with the glossary rule.

"Glossary form must be maintained. Draft glossaries are generated automatically from KudoZ questions and answers."

There was a question asked in the all-English pair recently:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/English/linguistics/4633591-even.html
The question was "even" and the answer (quite correct for the expression in which it was used in the context) was "even more demandingly".

So did this automatically generate a draft glossary entry
"even = even more demandingly"?
The word has at least two totally different meanings, but it NEVER, on its own, means "even more demandingly".

Try it in a Christmas context:

"Good King Wenceslas looked out,
On the Feast of Stephen,
As the snow lay round about.
Deep and crisp and even more demandingly."

The result is complete nonsense!


[Edited at 2011-12-23 17:40 GMT]


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neilmac  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 23:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
Agree Dec 23, 2011

Ty Kendall wrote:
...
Whilst I understand the site rule and the reason it exists, I agree with Andrei. There are instances where putting a neat concise translation in the little box at the top just isn't feasible.

There are times when an asker fully understands each and every word in a sentence but is having trouble understanding how they combine in a sentence, understanding the whole.

In addition, if the question is more to do with grammar than vocabulary then the above rule becomes a bit tricky to adhere to. I agree that it - (using things such as "see below") - shouldn't be abused, but language isn't so easy or simplistic to constrain to a single word or phrase every time...

If anything, I always view a "see below" type answer with a more critical eye, because I feel the answerer needs to justify making me read their (usually long) explanation...br>
[Edited at 2011-12-23 15:00 GMT]


I'm with Andrei, Ty and Robert on this one...


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gad
United States
Local time: 17:10
Member
French to English
"See below" indicates context, which most agree is essential Dec 23, 2011

neilmac wrote:

Ty Kendall wrote:
...
Whilst I understand the site rule and the reason it exists, I agree with Andrei. There are instances where putting a neat concise translation in the little box at the top just isn't feasible.

There are times when an asker fully understands each and every word in a sentence but is having trouble understanding how they combine in a sentence, understanding the whole.

In addition, if the question is more to do with grammar than vocabulary then the above rule becomes a bit tricky to adhere to. I agree that it - (using things such as "see below") - shouldn't be abused, but language isn't so easy or simplistic to constrain to a single word or phrase every time...

If anything, I always view a "see below" type answer with a more critical eye, because I feel the answerer needs to justify making me read their (usually long) explanation...br>
[Edited at 2011-12-23 15:00 GMT]


I'm with Andrei, Ty and Robert on this one...


Yeah, me too.


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