| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | English: Who needs the natives? Thread poster: IanW (X)
|
|---|
| focusing on the issue | Jun 2, 2004 |
Before this thread gets hijacked by non-native English speakers who present themselves as evidence of the contrary view, please let me reiterate Ian's point:
Not that we natives are infallible, of course, but when a string of Anglophones from all corners of the English-speaking world cry out in unison that a certain word is not used in a certain way, then it takes a breath-taking level of arrogance for a non-native to continue to claim the contrary. How would they react to an English speaker with a similar command of their native language dictating to them how to speak it? I suspect they would be as livid as I am.
So, Hacene and Sarah, the issue under contention is not your right to translate into a foreign language (in your case, English) but some members' arrogance in refusing to concede error when a chorus of English native speakers point out that a certain Kudoz answer is not idiomatic, ungrammatical or sounds plainly stupid.
Hacene, you really can't read the thread opened by Ian - a professional translator into English and, hence, someone with a solid grasp of English grammar - and then mention people you've met who suffer from hypercorrection. Wouldn't the opinion of a professional English translator count if he or she were to comment on the English written or spoken by a non-native who learned it as a second language?
The oft-heard argument of "English speakers who can't write down grammatically correct sentences" does not apply because (1) they do not participate in KudoZ (or it is assumed that people who are active in KudoZ should have a solid base in grammar), and (2) we don't turn to people without language training for grammar advice.
Again, the issue is this:
It is not only good Kudoz etiquette but also sound professional practice for translators whose native language is not English but who are active in into-English language pairs to defer to the opinion of professional translators who are English native speakers, especially when there is a consensus among the latter.
Marcus
| | | | | Thank you, Ian | Jun 2, 2004 |
Thank you Ian for your contribution. There is value in what you have written, and I hope that it will not be misunderstood. Hacene\'s statements indicate that there might be some misunderstanding brewing, as Marcus pointed out.
Marcus wrote
... the issue under contention is not your right to translate into a foreign language (in your case, English) but some members\' arrogance in refusing to concede error when a chorus of English native speakers point out that a certain Kudoz answer is not idiomatic, ungrammatical or sounds plainly stupid...
Hacene, you really can\'t read the thread opened by Ian - a professional translator into English and, hence, someone with a solid grasp of English grammar - and then mention people you\'ve met who suffer from hypercorrection. Wouldn\'t the opinion of a professional English translator count if he or she were to comment on the English written or spoken by a non-native who learned it as a second language?
I would like to reassure Hacene as best I can about the glossary:
Hacene wrote:
Yes, people can contest our advice as we can contest theirs, but, in all fairness, if we can\'t back up our arguments, there is little else we can do, as the final decision always rest with the asker who, unfortunately, too often does not choose the most appropriate answer which is, I believe, much more worrying as it becomes inherent part of our references.
We as moderators try to keep up with the glossary and change wrong entries. It\'s not an easy task, and we appreciate help from members who notice wrong glossary entries. Let us know when you spot one and we will review the question and change the entry whenever it\'s necessary.
Gayle
| | | |
I'm with you 100% on this one.
A fellow Prozian and I have gotten around the English>English problem by e-mailing each other with doubts on terminology and simply things like "can't seem to put my finger on the right word". It has been very effective for both of us, and one of the reasons we started doing this is that we were both frustrated with the very things you have so eloquently noted.
Unfortunately, we've found that quite often this problem occurs in our SC (Italian>English) ... See more I'm with you 100% on this one.
A fellow Prozian and I have gotten around the English>English problem by e-mailing each other with doubts on terminology and simply things like "can't seem to put my finger on the right word". It has been very effective for both of us, and one of the reasons we started doing this is that we were both frustrated with the very things you have so eloquently noted.
Unfortunately, we've found that quite often this problem occurs in our SC (Italian>English) as well, with people who are not native Italians OR speakers of any variety of English proposing answers. Like you, what bothers me is not so much the fact that they answer at all, but the attitude behind the answer -- often with the highest confidence level.
I am convinced that the most important "tool" in our trade is a sense of humility towards the source and target languages alike. After all, we never, ever finish learning. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Textklick 
Local time: 02:40
German to English
+ ...
In memoriam | Pinning the tail on the donkey | Jun 2, 2004 |
As a native speaker I concur fully with Ian; indeed being "confronted to" some of this string reassures me in my conviction
However, I see the whole Kudoz/glossary system as being one which is there to essentially provide sound help when it is needed, rather than being a game of "linguistic grabass".
I am not reluctant to admit to having been mildly annoyed with myself on occasions when my Kudoz offering... See more As a native speaker I concur fully with Ian; indeed being "confronted to" some of this string reassures me in my conviction
However, I see the whole Kudoz/glossary system as being one which is there to essentially provide sound help when it is needed, rather than being a game of "linguistic grabass".
I am not reluctant to admit to having been mildly annoyed with myself on occasions when my Kudoz offerings have been "bested" by non-native speakers and have indeed tried to make the point of including a corrective "agree" when this is the case. In my view, the correctness of the answer is more important than its source.
But when fellow translators make a public mockery of themselves by offering or accepting answers that are clearly ludicrous it really does raise my hackles in respect of the "blind leading the blind". It also makes no contribution towards the accuracy of the glossaries (although Gayle's point reassures me).
As a contribution towards providing assistance to those who would know better - and deterring those who should know better - it might be an idea to e-decorate the Kudoz questions and answerers' offerings with an indication of the respective mother tongue. This could also serve to indicate whether a response is required in e.g. EN/US or UK, European or Brazilian Portuguese etc.
One for the boys in the backroom slaving selflessly o'er a steaming server?
Chris Irwin ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
| Big difference between writing in English and writing English | Jun 2, 2004 |
First of all, I'd like to join the others and say thank you to Ian for posting this thread. This problem has been simmering under the surface for some time.
There is no substitute for genuine native speakers writing in their own language (whatever the language, even good old 'anyone can do it' English.) Texts written by non-natives are simply not the same, full stop. This is already clear enough from what we see on Proz. I personally don't care how long a person has lived in a foreign cou... See more First of all, I'd like to join the others and say thank you to Ian for posting this thread. This problem has been simmering under the surface for some time.
There is no substitute for genuine native speakers writing in their own language (whatever the language, even good old 'anyone can do it' English.) Texts written by non-natives are simply not the same, full stop. This is already clear enough from what we see on Proz. I personally don't care how long a person has lived in a foreign country/language area, they will never write like native speakers. They make different types of mistakes that immediately show that they are not writing in their mother tongue: wrong verb tenses, wrong idioms, mistakes with prepositions that no native would ever make, incorrect syntax etc. etc.
English does seem to suffer from this 'anyone can do it' syndrome more than most other languages. And non-natives do indeed often take on the idea that their knowledge of English is superior to that of natives. On one of my Proz sites, this is a daily occurrence and is starting to discourage some good native English translators from participating. We see questions asked AND answered by non-natives. Who needs the natives?, as Ian says. On other occasions, we've had five or six natives disagreeing with a nonsensical answer given by a non-native 'native English speaker' only to see this person stick to their guns and then have a fellow-non native Asker 'pick' the answer. Naturally this has no professional or other consequences for anyone (other than making the glossary a joke or embarrassment), but it does have a demoralising effect. What's the point of wasting time helping when they know it all already?
Why does English make non-natives feel so sure? Is it because the grammar does not stand in the way of saying a few words correctly in the first lesson? Is it a hidden disrespect of English as a language? I wonder about this a lot, since so many feel they have it 'mastered' and don't seem to question their ability at all.
Whatever, there is a big difference between writing IN English and writing English. And it is a very visible difference, despite what some may think.
[Edited at 2004-06-02 07:37]
[Edited at 2004-06-02 14:48] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Steffen Walter
Germany
Local time: 03:40
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
| Native language icon is already there for KudoZ answerers | Jun 2, 2004 |
Textklick wrote:
As a contribution towards providing assistance to those who would know better - and deterring those who should know better - it might be an idea to e-decorate the Kudoz questions and answerers' offerings with an indication of the respective mother tongue. This could also serve to indicate whether a response is required in e.g. EN/US or UK, European or Brazilian Portuguese etc.
One for the boys in the backroom slaving selflessly o'er a steaming server?
Chris Irwin
Hello Chris,
May I point out that we have that native language icon in place already - ever seen the 'N' right next to the KudoZ answerer's name? However, it'd be helpful if we added this for the asker, too.
Steffen
| | | | nothing
Local time: 02:40
English to Spanish
+ ...
[quote]writeaway wrote:
I personally don't care how long a person has lived in a foreign country/language area, they will never write like native speakers. the point of wasting time helping when they know it all already?
| | | | Textklick
Local time: 02:40
German to English
+ ...
In memoriam
Hello Chris,
May I point out that we have that native language icon in place already - ever seen the 'N' right next to the KudoZ answerer's name? However, it'd be helpful if we added this for the asker, too.
Steffen
Hi Steffen - surely the "N" is only on the answerer's profile page. I can't see it displayed on any answers?
| | |
|
|
|
Steffen Walter
Germany
Local time: 03:40
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
Textklick wrote:
Hi Steffen - surely the "N" is only on the answerer's profile page. I can't see it displayed on any answers?
Your observation kind of puzzles me ...
To test this, I give you an example I've just answered:
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/728443 ('DK'; English>German) - can you see the yellow octagonal symbol on the right-hand side of my name? Inside, it says '>N', which means 'Native in target (German)' (to be prompted by mouseover).
I hasten to add that such a symbol would appear only if the respective member declared a native language, which may not be the case for each and every KudoZ contributor.
Steffen
[Edited at 2004-06-02 09:15]
| | | | LuciaC
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:40
English to Italian
+ ...
| I agree entirely with this thread | Jun 2, 2004 |
but if I may pick on a detail mentioned by Sarah and someone else:
According to the Defense Language Institute, *English is the language that is the most difficult to learn*, precisely because of the lack of rules.
This is one of the most hilarious things I keep hearing, a myth circulated by some English native speakers who haven't got a clue about the grammar of the thousands of languages spoken around the globe.
I personally couln't name ONE language for which ... See more but if I may pick on a detail mentioned by Sarah and someone else:
According to the Defense Language Institute, *English is the language that is the most difficult to learn*, precisely because of the lack of rules.
This is one of the most hilarious things I keep hearing, a myth circulated by some English native speakers who haven't got a clue about the grammar of the thousands of languages spoken around the globe.
I personally couln't name ONE language for which one can say it is easy or less difficult to reach native speaker competence.
Lucia ▲ Collapse
| | | | Klaus Herrmann
Germany
Local time: 03:40
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
| 2 differences between EN-EN and DE-DE | Jun 2, 2004 |
Ian Winick wrote:
What puzzles me, however, is that the quality of the French and German monolingual sites is still as high as ever. If anyone else has an explanation for this, or any other thoughts on this matter, I’d be very interested to hear them.
1. Most questions not relating to linguistic but technical or knowledge problems are asked as EN-EN. You don't see questions like "What time Sun go down in Francfort, Illlinoise" in any other language SC than English monolingual.
2. In DE-DE, an obviously silly answer is prone to attract significantly more disagrees than in EN-EN.
| | | | awilliams
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:40
Italian to English
+ ...
| no octagonal sign | Jun 2, 2004 |
No, Steffen - there's no sign by your name. Maybe this is a facility for moderators?
| | |
|
|
|
| N sign not visible when I'm logged out - glitch or intended? | Jun 2, 2004 |
Amy Williams wrote:
No, Steffen - there\'s no sign by your name. Maybe this is a facility for moderators?
True! I just logged out and cannot see any N signs either, although they are there when I\'m logged in... Is this intended or a glitch?
Roberta
| | | | jerrie
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:40
German to English
+ ...
| Yellow octagons??!!?? | Jun 2, 2004 |
Sorry Steffen ;-(
Seem to have entered the Twilight Zone here!
You are seeing things that I most definitely cannot see
Shame, because if we could all see these yellow octagons it would be extremely helpful in putting an askers/answerers confidence level, contribution and native expertise into context.
| | | | Steffen Walter
Germany
Local time: 03:40
Member (2002)
English to German
+ ...
| NL symbols should be visible to platinum, if not all, ProZ.com members | Jun 2, 2004 |
jerrie wrote: Sorry Steffen ;-( Seem to have entered the Twilight Zone here! You are seeing things that I most definitely cannot see Shame, because if we could all see these yellow octagons it would be extremely helpful in putting an askers/answerers confidence level, contribution and native expertise into context.
Seems like a bug - I am strongly in favour of making these symbols visible throughout.
One more detail about those 'N' octagons: they (should) appear in yellow if the native language declared by the member is verified/confirmed by a credential or similar, and in grey if it isn't (i.e. NL competence has 'reported' status only).
Steffen
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » English: Who needs the natives? | TM-Town | Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business
Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.
More info » |
| | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
