kudoz - the best but not the fairest
Thread poster: Zareh Darakjian Ph.D.
Zareh Darakjian Ph.D.  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 20:15
German to English
+ ...
Jun 14, 2004

Recenlty I made the admittedly terrible mistake of posting
some 60 quetions (according to some members), for
which I am terribly sorry. I apologze. I just got carried
away by the expert help available on the best translation
network ever.

However, I strongly belive that one mistake should not mean that a person is wrong on everything else...

What dissappoints me is the following. As part of the
criticisms I recevied, one was, that judging by my profile
I should not be asking those quetions that I asked. They
were deemed below the level stated in my profile.

Sure, people are entitled to their opinion. But harassment
is a different issue. In fact, in my opinion, it is very very wrong to go and check on a peron's profile and then
harass that person. Why? because it it were not wrong,
then a large number of such cases would happen. I see
many individuals and even agencies asking whatever
they please. No body tells them anything. I think I know
why. But the point is, when I am told that my profile does
not agree with the level of my questions I ask, two things come my mind:


1) Only I am being selected for this kind of treatment .
This is wrong. There are many other people with
professional profiles who ask easy questions.

2) I don't think it's appropriate for members to engage
in this kind of action.


Thanks, to these efforts, I have already received 2 warnings. The third one will show me out of the door.

So it's easy... Just look for another question I ask, complain about it... and there I go... simple.

I don't think I should be receiving personal attacks.
I think moderators should be contacted. They can decide.
They may not do the right thing... but they have the
authority. If I am not taken off of Kudoz, then those
complaints are wrong.. If I am, then those complaints
are still not justitifed, but at least this proves what I have
learned in life. Some of the best, are also the most unfair.

I work about 16 hours a day: researcher, pianist, fascinated with languages. I am not looking for easy answers. I am simply fascinated with those intangible delights of life.


This may be the last time, of course. But Kudoz will remain the best, and hopefully turn into the fairest.

[Edited at 2004-06-15 20:23]

[Edited at 2004-06-15 20:58]


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jerrie  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:15
German to English
+ ...
KudoZ flooding Jun 15, 2004

Dear Zareh

There have been quite a few Forum Postings on 'flooding' of KudoZ questions - that is to say, when an asker posts more than say 10 - 15 questions a day.
If you look up these threads, and read some of your translating colleagues views, you might see the other side of the story - that is to say, how fed up professional translators become when their email inboxes are totally jammed with questions from one person, pushing all other questions by different askers to the back of the queue.
After seeing 20+ questions, it is understandable that one might visit the asker's profile to try to guage if the system is being abused, the level of asker's expertise, area of expertise, native language etc.
If you haven't been using ProZ.com for very long, I would recommend a quick scanning of the forum postings covering KudoZ.net which may help you for the future, and also check out the KudoZ rules.

hth
jerrie


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brigidm  Identity Verified
Norway
Local time: 05:15
Norwegian to English
Kudoz is for terms - not whole sentences... Jun 15, 2004

Another reason I could imagine for people becoming irritated is the fact that you have on several occasions asked for "whole sentences please" (yes, I did check your profile..). If you haven't read the Kudoz rules, perhaps this would be a good time to do it, to avoid future unpleasantries? Anyway, the rules state: "1.3 - Texts longer than 10 words should not be posted as KudoZ questions, but as jobs. (Jobs > Post a Job)".

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Levan Namoradze  Identity Verified
Georgia
Local time: 08:15
Member (2005)
English to Georgian
+ ...
Just another opinion... Jun 15, 2004

Zareh,
First, do not be dejected!
Just try to filter your questions i.e. think at first and only then post it here. I mean, perhaps, in some cases, you could find the right answers yourself should you use some dictionaries or otherwise.
Then, yes, there do exist the Rules. However, just use the "context window". I mean, lots of people here and me too use to render some help upon translating the whole context. Yes, it is an infringement, but... Russians use to say: "There always exist some "but""...
And at last: yes, the people use to be different. So, just do your best to comply with the Rules and ignore an offense, which may exist everywhere.
Best Regards,
Levan


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Textklick  Identity Verified
Local time: 04:15
German to English
+ ...
Use own and alternative resources Jun 15, 2004

I can only recommend investing in as wide a spread of specialist dictionaries as possible. The relative value of these has often been discussed in these forum postings, so you can certainly feel free to ask for colleagues' opinions on such tomes.

You may care to also check out free online facilities such as: http://dict.leo.org/.

I would counsel insisting on looking at every job before you take it on in order to be sure that your specialist linguistic ability is adequate.

I have done this on occasion and indeed passed on work to fellow Prozzers who are often very appreciative. This procedure of course works both ways and you could find yourself then being assigned tasks within your specialist area.

If you "read the manual", you'll find that Proz can be a very useful and friendly addition to your resources as a professional translator.

HTH and good luck


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Parrot  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 05:15
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Two sides to this Jun 15, 2004

Dear Zareh,

You will find the rules for using the terms help section below.

http://www.proz.com/kudozrules

The problem with "human translation" is that your terms help requests are answered by people who also have things to do, and who may also feel harassed about a large number of questions being posted.

While our efforts to define specific numerical limits have not been conclusive, our experience is that at around 15 questions we begin to get complaints.

For that matter, questions which demonstrate that the asker has exhausted all resources within his reach before consulting are highly appreciated.

On the other hand, no one is entitled to harass an asker in turn, and if you feel you have been subjected to such treatment, please forward the offending links or messages to the moderator of the language combination in which this occurred.



I see many individuals and even agencies asking whatever
they please. No body tells them anything.


The rules apply to everyone. You may not see people getting admonished in public, but they are admonished. Administrative actions such as you described are implemented. You are not being singled out.

The profiles are consulted for many reasons, among them, expertise. If you responded to a question in your expert field, for example, your answer would carry more credibility than if you were not a specialist in that field. They could also explain why a question out of your expert field might be difficult for you.

I realize it might be exciting to discover an effective new resource that "works", but please bear in mind that despite its automated format, KudoZ is still HUMAN. There are faces behind those e-mails. Please do not treat them like machines.

Best,
Cecilia


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Zareh Darakjian Ph.D.  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 20:15
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you... Jun 15, 2004

jerrie wrote:

Dear Zareh

There have been quite a few Forum Postings on 'flooding' of KudoZ questions - that is to say, when an asker posts more than say 10 - 15 questions a day.
If you look up these threads, and read some of your translating colleagues views, you might see the other side of the story - that is to say, how fed up professional translators become when their email inboxes are totally jammed with questions from one person, pushing all other questions by different askers to the back of the queue.
After seeing 20+ questions, it is understandable that one might visit the asker's profile to try to guage if the system is being abused, the level of asker's expertise, area of expertise, native language etc.
If you haven't been using ProZ.com for very long, I would recommend a quick scanning of the forum postings covering KudoZ.net which may help you for the future, and also check out the KudoZ rules.

hth
jerrie



Dear Jerrie:

I did apologize for "flooding". My most important point was:

Why is the act of checking my profile and then sending me harrassments is limited
to only me and no body else. Agancies ask simple questions, other people ask a
whole lot of simple questions (they are pros too). Just yesterady there was a series
of 10 questions, not that difficut. But you know what? it was not me. That's whay
nothing is said...

Thank again.


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Zareh Darakjian Ph.D.  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 20:15
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you... Jun 15, 2004

Dear Cecilia:

Thank you for your comments. I was not just admonished. I was given 2 warnings.
Others were not. I know this becuase they still ask a whole lot of easy
questions and still they get friendly answers both from moderators and members.

I have a qustion:

Have you ever considered that Kudoz could be very unfair in this respect.
Is that out of question? If it's the truth, then it should be said. Can you let me
know why it is not posssible for Kudoz to be unfair.?

Giving two wranings for something everybody else does, is not admonsihing.
It is sayint to me "Even though you appreciate this stie", still we don't want you.

"You dare ask another qusetion". Third warning. "You are out".

Thank you
Zareh


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Zareh Darakjian Ph.D.  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 20:15
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Levan Jun 15, 2004

Levan Namoradze wrote:

Zareh,
First, do not be dejected!
Just try to filter your questions i.e. think at first and only then post it here. I mean, perhaps, in some cases, you could find the right answers yourself should you use some dictionaries or otherwise.
Then, yes, there do exist the Rules. However, just use the "context window". I mean, lots of people here and me too use to render some help upon translating the whole context. Yes, it is an infringement, but... Russians use to say: "There always exist some "but""...
And at last: yes, the people use to be different. So, just do your best to comply with the Rules and ignore an offense, which may exist everywhere.
Best Regards,
Levan


Dear Levan.

I thank you for your advice. I answered you before, but I don't know why it was
not posted...

I mentioned that I feel dejected becuase I like Kudoz so very much, yet I was
given two warnings, one afer another. What this means, is that if I ask any
more questions, I will be taken out subsequent to a thrid warning.

Also, my main point was then others who ask a large number of easy qusetions
should be treated the same way as I have. that will amount to probably hundreds
of individuals...


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Zareh Darakjian Ph.D.  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 20:15
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Levan Jun 15, 2004

Textklick wrote:

I can only recommend investing in as wide a spread of specialist dictionaries as possible. The relative value of these has often been discussed in these forum postings, so you can certainly feel free to ask for colleagues' opinions on such tomes.

You may care to also check out free online facilities such as: http://dict.leo.org/.

I would counsel insisting on looking at every job before you take it on in order to be sure that your specialist linguistic ability is adequate.

I have done this on occasion and indeed passed on work to fellow Prozzers who are often very appreciative. This procedure of course works both ways and you could find yourself then being assigned tasks within your specialist area.

If you "read the manual", you'll find that Proz can be a very useful and friendly addition to your resources as a professional translator.

HTH and good luck





Thank you Textklick, for your kind advice.

Zareh


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Zareh Darakjian Ph.D.  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 20:15
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Brigid Jun 15, 2004

Brigid Mccauley wrote:

Another reason I could imagine for people becoming irritated is the fact that you have on several occasions asked for "whole sentences please" (yes, I did check your profile..). If you haven't read the Kudoz rules, perhaps this would be a good time to do it, to avoid future unpleasantries? Anyway, the rules state: "1.3 - Texts longer than 10 words should not be posted as KudoZ questions, but as jobs. (Jobs > Post a Job)".



Thank you Brigid.

I answered you prior to this, but it did not get posted. I answered the others as
well. only some of them got posted.

Of course you personally are not responsible for this. Once again, though, I do
not encourage breaking the rules:

1) When I type a phrase and put the part that I am interested between asterisks,
and then when someone translates the whole sentence

a) I am very thankful

b) I gave the whole sentence as context, and put the part I am looking for
between asterisks.


the interesting thing is: others do this as well. Even more interesting, it is
a helpful way of presenting a quetion and also other continue doing it
without getting warnings which will eventually usher them out of Kudoz.


I understand that there are not good answers to this. The only answer, I guess
is "Kudoz is not yours. If you don't like it, get out of it".

I like it. I don't want to get out of it. However, I hesitate every time now I have
to ask a question. Why? The warnings don't go away. One more, and I am
forced out...

That's why I am so concerned about this.

Thanks again

Zareh


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 05:15
English to German
+ ...
Vetting of forum posts Jun 15, 2004

Hi Zareh,
I answered you prior to this, but it did not get posted. I answered the others as
well. only some of them got posted.


All of your posts got posted, as far as I can see - have a look at the forum rules why postings might take a moment to become visible:


Postings may be vetted

Postings by platinum members and VID (verified identity) members appear immediately. Postings from non-platinum and non-VID members are vetted. Therefore, there may be a delay between the time a posting is made and the time it becomes visible.


HTH - Ralf


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Zareh Darakjian Ph.D.  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 20:15
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thankss Jun 15, 2004

Ralf Lemster wrote:

Hi Zareh,
I answered you prior to this, but it did not get posted. I answered the others as
well. only some of them got posted.


All of your posts got posted, as far as I can see - have a look at the forum rules why postings might take a moment to become visible:


Postings may be vetted

Postings by platinum members and VID (verified identity) members appear immediately. Postings from non-platinum and non-VID members are vetted. Therefore, there may be a delay between the time a posting is made and the time it becomes visible.


HTH - Ralf



Thank you Ralph. I got confused because I noticed some of my comments got
posted almost immediately...

Thanks again

Zareh


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Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 06:15
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
Take it as a mature adult Jun 15, 2004

Dear Zareh,

My personal opinion: as far as I understand you abused kudoZ system and offended many kudoZ participants by asking an incredible number of questions (60 in a raw or in a day _IS_ monstorus), so why do you seek for justicifications now?

Their reaction was natural. Now take it as a useful experience and just do not repeat the mistake in the future, that's simple.

I suppose you're wrong when thinking that you were treated in a different way comparing to other people who abuse some reasonable limitations. 10 questions are not 60 questions,
and 10 questions asked by a person who do not claim this or that pair as his/her working pair is not 60 questions from a professional, that's the difference.

I do not want to accuse you or anything, but I just do not see any reasons for you to accuse other fellow colleagues for their *harsh* reactions and offensive conduct. It looks so natural to me -- and I'm at their side.

[Edited at 2004-06-15 20:19]


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Zareh Darakjian Ph.D.  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 20:15
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank, Kirill Jun 15, 2004

Kirill Semenov wrote:

Dear Zareh,

My personal opinion: as far as I understand you abused kudoZ system and offended many kudoZ participants by asking an incredible number of questions (60 in a raw or in a day _IS_ monstorus), so why do you seek for justicifications now?

Their reaction was natural. Now take it as a useful experience and just do not repeat the mistake in the future, that's simple.

I suppose you're wrong when thinking that you were treated in a different way comparing to other people who abuse some reasonable limitations. 10 questions are not 60 questions,
and 10 questions asked by a professional who do not claim this or that pair as his/her working pair is not 60 questions from a professional, that's the difference.

I do not want to accuse you or anything, but I just do not see any reasons for you to accuse other fellow colleagues for their *harsh* reactions and offensive conduct. It looks so natural to me -- and I'm at their side.


Thank you Kirill:

The posting that I had was firstly to apologize for my mistake. I was not arguing
that I was right in asking 60 questions.



I was just saying that, subsequent to that I was criticized for asking questions
below my level, and that others were not. But the most important point is not
that I was cirticized. The most important point was that I was given two warnings.
Aslo, the more important point is that those two warnings stay there, making
sure I think 300 times before asking one question. Otherwise, the thrird warning
will be the end of it all....

Of course there is nothing wrong with this, but 100s of other members ask
such easy questions, on a continuous basis, to which even I can provide
answers... My question is regarding those 100s of other memers.

thank you.


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