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Taking "Disagrees" Personally
Thread poster: Samuel Sebastian Holden Bramah

Samuel Sebastian Holden Bramah  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 01:27
Member (2014)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Mar 17, 2014

Hey guys.

I have got to the point where I find it unavoidable to say something about this.

I have had a couple of cases now where I don't agree with a translation and I say so on KudoZ... But then people get bent out of shape about it.

I thought the whole idea of a discussion was to be able to agree and disagree respectfully and freely and bash the ball about a bit so that we all had our say and then the asker either takes one of our answers or comes up with their own flash of inspiration based on what all the rest of us have said.

If I disagree with someone's translation I don't think less of them as a person or as a translator (well, most of the time at least), I just don't agree that the term is correctly translated in that context.

I for one am happy to have people disagree with me, since it makes me reconsider in light of their query and either rectify or learn something new, or retort with my explanation of why I think I'm right and they aren't.

It isn´t a battle or a case of I know more than you... It is just a case of my experience versus yours.

I think if we keep it sane and friendly we should be able to all agree and disagree with any KudoZ answer.

I have even had people disagree with posts just so the "net agreement" drops, and I think that is just silly, and certainly of no help to anyone.

Then you have people who are just plain bitchy, making comments about things being irrelevant... I think all answers are relevant as they help us find inspiration for coming up with the best possible translation... Also we have to remember that all this is being stored there so people can search in the future, and maybe the context the asker used initially is toally different from the context any of us will need in the future, and the whole fun/joy of KudoZ is that we will be able to search it later and find relevant information.

OK... Rant over... Back to work for me


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Hannah Geiger  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 19:27
Member (2009)
English to Czech
+ ...
The game of Kudoz Mar 17, 2014

I have always found it rather silly when the “Answerers”, i.e. the people who post an Answer, start throwing disagrees at each other. There are those who agree with me that once you put yourself out there with an answer, you should let your other colleagues judge you, not a fellow poster who (obviously) differs.

On the other hand, it is quite normal for a person to realize that the other Answerer has the “correct answer” and side with him/her by giving an Agree.

All in all, the Kudoz certainly test your character and integrity, and, as in life, some have it, some don’t. Sometimes a person should really give an Agree, but comes in and answers with a nuance of a difference, one that really should not even have been posted.

Kudoz are extremely valuable for me when I search for a term, not “to get those 4 points” for which some people are able to “kill, twist and mutilate”. Words, that is.


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Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 00:27
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Disagree or neutral? Mar 17, 2014

I agree that we should disagree where we believe a proposed translation would in fact be a mistranslation.

But personally, if I just don't think the proposal is a particularly accurate or suitable translation in the given context, I prefer to say that I'm neutral about it, and comment on why I don't feel able to agree. That way, the red disagrees are kept to a minimum and hence keep their effectiveness.

So, I use the neutral response as both a totally neutral one (e.g. in my reverse pair where I know the proposal is a perfectly accurate rendering of the source term, but I don't feel qualified to determine if it's the best in the given context), and as a "mild disagree".


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Hannah Geiger  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 19:27
Member (2009)
English to Czech
+ ...
an "Agree" to Sheila Mar 17, 2014

Sheila Wilson wrote:

I agree that we should disagree where we believe a proposed translation would in fact be a mistranslation.

But personally, if I just don't think the proposal is a particularly accurate or suitable translation in the given context, I prefer to say that I'm neutral about it, and comment on why I don't feel able to agree. That way, the red disagrees are kept to a minimum and hence keep their effectiveness.

So, I use the neutral response as both a totally neutral one (e.g. in my reverse pair where I know the proposal is a perfectly accurate rendering of the source term, but I don't feel qualified to determine if it's the best in the given context), and as a "mild disagree".



Yes, Sheila, I forgot about that. Of course, one can say the same thing under the neutral, and yes, it is a polite or "mild disagree", and one can also comment under it as well.

[Edited at 2014-03-17 16:35 GMT]


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Samuel Sebastian Holden Bramah  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 01:27
Member (2014)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Neutrality Mar 17, 2014

Sure, I use "neutral" too... but only if I think the translation is valid, just not in context.

I use the three options to leave comments on the other translations offered and sometimes I do strongly disagree with my peers on something.

But I also consider it a fun thing to do, I like the discussions it generates, and there are some posts that can become quite lively and really interesting, especially if there are a couple of us bashing things about and keeping it fun and friendly.

For me answering KudoZ questions is like playing Sudokus, sometimes you get it right, sometimes you don't, but the idea is to have fun, enjoy it and also to help people in the process.

So... I vote (to coin a phrase) to take the "Diss" out of disagreeing.

Don't the rest of you participate in KudoZ for fun/enjoyment? Beats "Apalabrados" any day.


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DLyons  Identity Verified
Ireland
Local time: 00:27
Spanish to English
+ ...
Different cultures Mar 17, 2014

Samuel Sebastian Holden Bramah wrote:

Hey guys.

I have got to the point where I find it unavoidable to say something about this.

I have had a couple of cases now where I don't agree with a translation and I say so on KudoZ... But then people get bent out of shape about it.


You're dealing with people from widely different cultural backgrounds - in some of them, a "disagree" is very insulting. In some, it seems the norm to post even blatant nonsense with confidence of a 5.

My impression is that the "general community opinion" (insofar as that exists) is to post "neutral" and express the extent of one's actual disagreement in the comment. Personally, I go along with that.

The occasional "disagree" with an answer of mine doesn't bother me. That said, there are a few dogmatic posters in my language pairs who disagree with almost everybody's responses in their Specialized Areas, apparently as a way of bludgeoning their own (often almost identical) answers through - that does bother me, but there's not much that can be done about it.


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Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 02:27
Member (2005)
English to Russian
+ ...
Incompetence multiplied by Overconfidence Mar 17, 2014

'Disagree' comments that are a product of Incompetence and Overconfidence do bother me.

Other kinds of 'disagree' comments are OK.


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Helena Chavarria  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 01:27
Member (2011)
Spanish to English
+ ...
I agree with 'neutral' Mar 17, 2014

DLyons wrote:

My impression is that the "general community opinion" (insofar as that exists) is to post "neutral" and express the extent of one's actual disagreement in the comment. Personally, I go along with that.


That's what I do, too.


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Samuel Sebastian Holden Bramah  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 01:27
Member (2014)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Comunity OPs and Consensus Mar 17, 2014

DLyons wrote:

My impression is that the "general community opinion" (insofar as that exists) is to post "neutral" and express the extent of one's actual disagreement in the comment. Personally, I go along with that.


Ok, so why have the agree and disagree options if people are not going to use them...

What do the moderators have to say about this? I would like to know what the general consensus is, before breaching netiquette... But I realy do feel that the whole idea of the points system, the agree and disagree buttons and the "certainty bar" are all about collaborative thinking and creative reasoning... Not about hurling insults or oneupmanship.


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DLyons  Identity Verified
Ireland
Local time: 00:27
Spanish to English
+ ...
Proposal: An "Utter Crap" option. Mar 17, 2014

[quote]Samuel Sebastian Holden Bramah wrote:


Ok, so why have the agree and disagree options if people are not going to use them...


If there was a fourth option along the lines of "Utter Crap" then to merely "disagree" would seem mild by comparison and could be used much more often.


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Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 01:27
Member (Apr 2018)
French to English
The joys of democracy! Mar 17, 2014

I vote for Utter Crap. Just love the idea of having it.

Would using it bring the wrath of St Jerome down on us?


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Samuel Sebastian Holden Bramah  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 01:27
Member (2014)
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
You are a God field Mar 17, 2014

[quote]DLyons wrote:

Samuel Sebastian Holden Bramah wrote:


Ok, so why have the agree and disagree options if people are not going to use them...


If there was a fourth option along the lines of "Utter Crap" then to merely "disagree" would seem mild by comparison and could be used much more often.


Now THAT would be fun... but then we would need a "you are a God" too


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Phil Hand  Identity Verified
China
Local time: 07:27
Chinese to English
“This excellent translation gives me the raging horn"? Mar 18, 2014

Perhaps that might seem not quite gender-neutral!

I guess it varies from forum to forum, but in general I do think that disagrees should be used lightly. It's quite a curious category. You've got to think that a post is wrong - definitely wrong - but also interesting enough to respond to.

For example, there's a lurker in my Kudoz pair who doesn't appear to speak either Chinese or English well. I have no idea what he's doing there, but he answers a lot of questions. Everyone just ignores him. It's not worth disagreeing, because he's just silly.

So a disagree would have to be reserved for someone who's made a serious attempt, but has got the answer objectively wrong. It can happen: for example, misreading a technical term for a standard usage. But it's rare.

And like others have said, everyone's thin skinned on the internet. There's a reason Facebook only has "like" and no "dislike".


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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:27
Member (2008)
Italian to English
In my case Mar 18, 2014

I feel your pain.

In my case, what really gets my goat is when after a long to-and-fro of answering, nitpicking, and so on, the askers chooses what is clearly THE WRONG ANSWER !!


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 01:27
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
The problem with the KudoZ "agree/disagree" design Mar 18, 2014

Samuel Sebastian Holden Bramah wrote:
I have had a couple of cases now where I don't agree with a translation and I say so on KudoZ... But then people get bent out of shape about it.


It is not because you disagree with them that they get upset, but because you deliberately and knowingly voted that they be penalised for having given an answer.

One could say that one problem with the agree/neutral/disagree feature in KudoZ is that it there are categories missing in the range. It may look like the range is this:

* agree
* neutral
* disagree

But in reality the range is this:

* agree [utterly]
* agree even more
* agree somewhat more
* agree somewhat
* neutral
* disagree somewhat
* disagree somewhat more
* disagree even more
* disagree [utterly]

Why do I say this? Because if you select the "disagree" option, it does not merely act as a useful label of your response, but it actually penalises the answerer in a hurtful way.

Owing to this unfortunate bad design of the KudoZ system, you should only use the "disagree" option if you agree that the answerer should be penalised for his answer. Otherwise you should use the "neutral" option, and then write the actual word "disagree" in your reply.

Think not of what you're doing, but of what the immediate consequences are of what you're doing.


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Taking "Disagrees" Personally

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