Suggestion: The Kudoz "Index"
Thread poster: Nesrin

Nesrin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:51
English to Arabic
+ ...
Jan 18, 2005

I have a suggestion - apologies in advance if it has been suggested before - on the display of Kudoz points on Proz translators' profiles...
As recently pointed out on another thread ("Showing Kudoz Leaders"), Kudoz points don't really mean that much, as a Proz member may be quite new, or his/her contributions to Kudoz may be few and far between (for lack of time, or whatever).
Well, how about if, instead of Kudoz POINTS, the profile displayed a Kudoz INDEX(I'm actually not quite sure that Index is the right word to use here - please correct me if I'm wrong!)
i.e.: If someone has answered 20 questions and received 4 points, his/her "index" would be 4/20=1/5= 0.2. Similary, if someone has answered 1000 questions and received 200 points, his/her index would also be 0.2. If he has received 40 points for his answers to 20 questions, his index would be 2 etc.
I believe this would present a real indicator of how valuable his/her contributions to Kudoz are.
I can think of only 2 disadvantages: 1) these calculations may often result in ridiculously small numbers like 0.00025, but mathematicians among us may find a solution (e.g. multiplying the final result by 1000) 2) Kudoz non-users and translation agencies may not be able to make head or tail of it. But explaining the new system shouldn't be that much of a problem.

The final question is: Is this feasible from the Proz-webmasters' point of view?

Interested to hear your feedback
Nesrin


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Nesrin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:51
English to Arabic
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Added note Jan 18, 2005

I should add that the maximum anyone would be able to achieve under this system would be "4" (or 4000 if the index was (total points/questions answered)*1000), i.e. if the person received 4 points for each question answered.



Nesrin


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Tina Vonhof  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 05:51
Member (2006)
Dutch to English
+ ...
Agree with Sven Jan 18, 2005

I think the points are more meaningful and anyone familiar with the system will be aware of the relativity of it.

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Andy Watkinson
Spain
Local time: 13:51
Member
Catalan to English
+ ...
Hi Nesrin Jan 18, 2005

I think you'll find this topic has been raised several times and dating back at least a couple of years.

The idea was to establish a KudoZ *ratio", much along the same lines as you describe. i.e. an indicator not of how many questions have been answered or how often an answerer's suggestions have been chosen, but a form of "reliability ratio" in the sense of "this translator is right XX% of the time, as opposed to another with a lower average, despite that fact that the latter may actually have more points.

However, it does seem that it can be quite difficult to put into practice unless we're talking about language pairs with a large amount of "traffic" and number of answerers.

There could be a problem, for example, with translators with little sought after translation pairs.

Henry pointed out several of the flaws such as system would be open to, so I suggest you search for "reliability ratio" and you'll find a summary of the situation so far.

Regards,
Andy


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Jens Mährländer  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:51
English to German
+ ...
I understand your point, but... Jan 18, 2005

KudoZ simply cannot exist and persist without any kind of ranking, and every ranking has its advantages and disadvantages. The current system is unfair, because two months members are directly compared with members, which have been around for years, whose merits, certainly, have to be reflected by the ranking in one way or the other. So my proposal would be, to devaluate "old points" by a certain factor (more than 1 year old points counting only 1/4, more than 2 years old points 1/8, etc.).
But, as you can tell already by the first answer to your posting, at ProZ you won´t get far with proposals that are bound to cut down any privileges of the "old bags" around here, who, like old bears or wolfs, will protect there strongholds and territories with claws and teeths.

[Edited at 2005-01-18 22:11]


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espurna
Spain
Local time: 13:51
English to Spanish
+ ...
Meaning? What meaning? Jan 18, 2005

Don't worry about the intrinsic and actual meaning of Kudoz. After all, it is just a game, with its rules, and you can play or not.
You just need to take a look to some questions and answers of a subject matter you really master. Probably you will see lots of points awarded to uncorrect answers, ocasionally even absolute nonsenses, while correct and clearly explained ones are rejected.
IMO, the importance of Kudoz resides on the help it can provide to the answer, on the search itself you can start when a question atracts your attention, or on the feedback you get from other answerers.
Kudoz points? BrowniZ? Well, you can enjoy them but I think they could be eliminated. The mutual help would remain while the sometimes confusing point-hunters would have a rest.

In my modest opinion, I insist.

Joaquim


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Nesrin  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:51
English to Arabic
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Precisely.. Jan 18, 2005

andycw wrote:

However, it does seem that it can be quite difficult to put into practice unless we're talking about language pairs with a large amount of "traffic" and number of answerers.

There could be a problem, for example, with translators with little sought after translation pairs.



But, precisely - under the "system" I'm suggesting, translators with little sought-after language pairs would get the chance to rank as highly as others, based on the ratio of points/ answers - instead of only dreaming of ever reaching the 100 point-limit.

Thanks for pointing me to some of the older discussions - I just checked some of them.


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Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 06:51
German to English
Suggestion: The KudoZ Jan 19, 2005

Nesrin wrote:

But, precisely - under the "system" I'm suggesting, translators with little sought-after language pairs would get the chance to rank as highly as others, based on the ratio of points/ answers - instead of only dreaming of ever reaching the 100 point-limit.


Good idea, Nesrin, and, yes, proposals like yours have been made many times over the years and thoroughly debated. I agree with you that it would be nice to level the playing field so that newcomers can more quickly establish a record to be proud of.

I'd like to add two points:

1. Some people just want to contribute information, suggestions, links, definitions to the KudoZ question rather than proposing an answer for points. They sometimes enter "Background info not for points" instead of an answer. Proposals have been made to allow such contributors to opt out of the points system because if a system like the one you're proposing is ever implemented they would be penalized each time their "background info" is not selected.
http://www.proz.com/topic/17690

2. It has also been suggested that any ranking system would apply only to the "pro level" questions and not to the "easy level" questions. I think that makes a lot of sense, but you may have noticed that there are an awful lot of questions classified "easy" by askers that "require the skills of a specialist" and many questions classified "pro" that "any bilingual person would know."

I think we need to make the Easy vs. Pro distinction clearer to askers. People who want to ask a KudoZ question see the following definitions of levels:

Pro - question for professional translators or specialists
Easy - question for language learners
(I think askers often don't know whether these definitions apply to them or to the people they need help from)

but under "edit question" we have the following definitions of level:

Easy: Any bilingual person would know
Pro: This question requires the skills of a specialist

I think this second set of definitions should be what askers see when they are deciding which level to assign to the question.

Cheers, Kim

[Edited at 2005-01-19 01:08]


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two2tango  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 08:51
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
A worthy suggestion Jan 20, 2005

Nesrin wrote:

But, precisely - under the "system" I'm suggesting, translators with little sought-after language pairs would get the chance to rank as highly as others, based on the ratio of points/ answers - instead of only dreaming of ever reaching the 100 point-limit.

Thanks for pointing me to some of the older discussions - I just checked some of them.


Thanks Nesrin for your worthy suggestion.

It is true that this idea has been discussed before, as happens with almost any idea, but it was never fully approved nor fully dismissed, so there should be room for further debate.

Besides, it is good to get the fresh breeze of innovative thinking every now and then. And the exchange of ideas based in good faith and respect makes us all richer.

Regards,
Enrique


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NancyLynn
Canada
Local time: 07:51
Member (2002)
French to English
+ ...

MODERATOR
Agree Jan 20, 2005

It is senseless to say 'this has been discussed before', with no room for improvement.

New translators join ProZ.com every day, and new people bring with them their own experiences and opinions.

Obviously, discussion of the various aspects of the site which affect us all should be open to these newcomers (and old-timers, too; sometimes we get a brainwave on an old subject, it's been known to happen!!).

By all means, bring forth your new ideas! Who knows, perhaps something good will come of it

Nancy


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