Are You Experiencing this Phenomenon in the FR>EN pair?
Thread poster: MultiPro

MultiPro  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:48
Member (2006)
English to French
+ ...
Dec 3, 2016

Greetings to All !

I used to visit the FR>EN pair quite frequently in the past. I enjoyed very much the lively and very interested exchanges of ideas in it. I was very impressed back in the days by the quality of all your input and answers. I have not visited in perhaps 4 or 5 years. So, I confess having lost track of the most familiar and most prolific KudoZ users in your pair (FR>EN).
I am just curious to know if you have any French-speaking KudoZ user coming on a daily basis (and frequently during the same day) to comment entirely in FRENCH in your English forum. Have you seen any French speaker residing in London for instance contesting any of your native English speakers' answers, on the regular, arguing ad nauseam with you (every single detail real or imagined) and hijacking the English KudoZ discussion threads, monopolizing the KudoZ debate to impose his or her views on you?
Have you endured on a daily basis a French speaker coming into your arena to question the idea(s) beyond a sentence, the author's intentions in a very demeaning way and constantly cast doubt on the writer's linguistic knowledge and abilities sometimes in perfectly-worded and logical sentences?

Please advise if you are witnessing such a phenomenon in your realm and how you deal with it and if you at all tolerate it.
Thanks.







[Edited at 2016-12-03 04:54 GMT]


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Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 17:48
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
What prompted the question? Dec 3, 2016

It's a highly loaded question - almost an interrogative rant, if you can have such a thing - so I think you should share your reason(s) for posting.

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EvaVer  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:48
Member (2012)
Czech to English
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Maybe I see what you mean Dec 3, 2016

Not specifically what you describe, but I did encounter a few unpleasant people in FR/EN and EN/FR pairs. The community is huge and the probability to find such people there is therefore higher than in "small" pairs.

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Victoria Britten  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 18:48
Member (2012)
French to English
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In a word... Dec 3, 2016

No.

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Artem Vakhitov  Identity Verified
Estonia
English to Russian
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Not the original poster, but here's I guess what prompted it Dec 3, 2016

Sheila Wilson wrote:

It's a highly loaded question - almost an interrogative rant, if you can have such a thing - so I think you should share your reason(s) for posting.


I'm not the original poster, but here's a description of what, I guess, prompted it: http://www.proz.com/forum/kudoz/309460-we_need_to_make_disagree_system_more_complex_and_perhaps_more_unbiassed.html#2610209


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Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 17:48
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Thanks, Artem Dec 3, 2016

Artem Vakhitov wrote:
Sheila Wilson wrote:
It's a highly loaded question - almost an interrogative rant, if you can have such a thing - so I think you should share your reason(s) for posting.


I'm not the original poster, but here's a description of what, I guess, prompted it: http://www.proz.com/forum/kudoz/309460-we_need_to_make_disagree_system_more_complex_and_perhaps_more_unbiassed.html#2610209

Yes, I have since seen that, but thanks .


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MultiPro  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:48
Member (2006)
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
A series of abuses by some users Dec 5, 2016

Sheila Wilson wrote:

What prompted the question?


For years, there have been some characters, and particularly a very domineering one, along with another self-proclaimed linguistic authority in the French Kudoz pair (EN>FR), who has been dominating the debates there (in his peer comments and mostly in the KudoZ discussion threads where he has been imposing his opinions and trying to prevail at all costs. I have taken a break for years and for months having a regular job, a professional life, a family life, a social life and an all-around fulfilled life beyond Kudoz and Proz. But this man has really spoiled the French KudoZ atmosphere. I know particularly of French KudoZ users who have stopped participating altogether because of his toxic attitude, his domineering stance, his unending argumentative modus operandi with French natives and his self-appointed stance as an "expert" in French and a know-it-all.

The series of very unfortunate abuses on his part includes: changing his original Neutral comments to Disagrees many many times or keeping editing his comments and arguing in order to win an argument. He does this ad nauseam. Along with the other fellow, he is also a serial disagreer, an unfair disagreer and a disagree abuser. For instance, he would give disagrees to Kudoz participants who answered with a low confidence of 2 or 3, when it is clear that the person responding is just making a suggestion and providing his/her modest perspective. In most cases where there is little to no context, the 'Disagree' option/button SHOULD be DISABLED. In those cases as well, he will come and give people 'disagrees' when NOBODY, including himself, has any clue about the lacking context!!! I have seen cases where askers just ask one (1) term or 2 terms with NO further context but a field mention. How in the world can he come and disagree with any proposed answer when we are all left in the dark conjuring up a myriad of hypotheses, scenarios and doing mental gymnastics and supputations? His abusing the French thread to only skew the debate on his argumentative side and influence askers are also not in the interest of the game! Sometimes I feel really bad for the poor askers, especially the new ones, (those who are more impressionable by such a domineering character and less knowledgeable in either the source or target language) to be subjected to his undue debate tactics. He really harasses askers besides always questioning the English author's linguistic knowledge and abilities. He always pops up to say that the English is "wrong" or that "the person is not a native English speaker." That is just one example.

What is really perplexing and vexing is that he keeps writing in English in the French KudoZ arena. I find it 1) insulting and 2) unfair for the French natives who do not feel at ease or are not linguistically or mentally inclined to respond in English to his tirades. He knows that and uses English purposely as a psychological warfare tool to intimidate them or silence them into submission to his point of view. This is NOT right. Did I mention that his constant interventions in English derail the debates? You have him peer-commenting in English on one hand, KudoZ participants answering in French on the other hand, and you get the picture... It is all over the place: a real jungle with cacophonic sounds where no one listens to each other and where arguments and counterarguments fly over each other's head.

This man has done too much to be related here. But for all his big talk, he can dish it out but can't take it. He is always first to go running to moderators to make them hide answers to his peer comments that he doesn't like or that bruise his ego !

I also feel bad for moderators who are being manipulated this way. Like us, Kudoz contributors, moderators are volunteers who are doing great work but a thankless job. As custodians of the rules, anytime someone runs to them on the pretense an answer is against the "rules", they will promptly and instinctively hide it (some without apparently knowing French at all) --whether the claim is true or not-- I think that is also an abuse of moderators by him and a disrespect for their precious time!

The latest case, is that in order to help and shed some light in an otherwise very interesting and challenging thread, I pasted from dictionaries 2 definitions of a term (both as a noun and as an adjective). After many back-and-forths commenting and posting in that question thread, he did not react to my posted reference during most of the time he came back. But he returned again later and as an umpteenth thought or after thought , he decided to contest the dictionary definitions!!!. I answered in part : "Now you are contesting dictionaries and questioning lexicographers' research work?" Lo and behold he had my answer hidden, but his remark stood there... It could be argued that since his comment expressed his subjective view, it also had no linguistic basis. In fact it contained a veiled insult at me, but that is another KudoZ story on how the rules are enforced. I removed my original reference then and did not run to any moderators to report his KudoZ rules violation...

What I am relating here is just a tiny snippet of many wrongs occurring there. The KudoZ forum should not be a one-man show nor should it be an exploited platform for someone to assert his self-aggrandizing tendencies and exert his coveted KudoZ dominance. It is now way past due time that some victims talk about it because such imperialistic attitudes and blatant perversion of the Kudoz spirit are very very wrong.





















[Edited at 2016-12-05 10:15 GMT]


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Adrien Esparron
Local time: 18:48
Member (2007)
German to French
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I thank you Dec 5, 2016

MultiPro a écrit :

I find it insulting for the French natives who do not feel at ease or are not linguistically nor mentally inclined to respond to his tirades in English.



I'm one of these non inclined to. So thank you having written also for me.

With regards and have fun!






[Modifié le 2016-12-05 09:13 GMT]


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Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 17:48
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Surely a support ticket would be more appropriate in the circumstances? Dec 5, 2016

MultiPro wrote:
What is really perplexing and vexing is that he keeps writing in English in the French KudoZ arena. I find it 1) insulting and 2) unfair for the French natives who do not feel at ease or are not linguistically or mentally inclined to respond in English to his tirades. He knows that and uses English purposely as a psychological warfare tool to intimidate them or silence them into submission to his point of view. This is NOT right. Did I mention that his constant interventions in English derail the debates? You have him peer-commenting in English on one hand, KudoZ participants answering in French on the other hand, and you get the picture... It is all over the place: a real jungle with cacophonic sounds where no one listens to each other and where arguments and counterarguments fly over each other's head.

Of course it's strange that a French native speaker prefers to write in English, but not unknown, especially in someone who has lived many years in an English speaking country. I don't see any problem with using English for English to French KudoZ questions - other then in the proposed answer, of course. Both source and target languages are normally allowed for communication purposes. The asker can restrict the language if wished but I've never seen it happen. I don't see conversations where the two parties use different languages to be a problem, per se. I know several kids who do it all the time with their parents! I sometimes intervene in EN>FR KudoZ, if I think the source term has been misunderstood. I normally do so in English but I have no problems with others replying in French. I also have some clients who normally write in French but sometimes switch to English - so I reciprocate by changing languages too. It really shouldn't be an issue among translators.

I also feel bad for moderators who are being manipulated this way. Like us, Kudoz contributors, moderators are volunteers who are doing great work but a thankless job. As custodians of the rules, anytime someone runs to them on the pretense an answer is against the "rules", they will promptly and instinctively hide it (some without apparently knowing French at all) --whether the claim is true or not-- I think that is also an abuse of moderators by him and a disrespect for their precious time!

I think that if a moderator can be manipulated so easily, they should be reported and maybe removed from the programme. But I'm sure most can stand up for themselves and for the rules they're enforcing.

he decided to contest the dictionary definitions!!!. I answered in part : "Now you are contesting dictionaries and questioning lexicographers' research work?" Lo and behold he had my answer hidden, but his remark stood there... It could be argued that since his comment expressed his subjective view, it also had no linguistic basis. In fact it contained a veiled insult at me, but that is another KudoZ story on how the rules are enforced. I removed my original reference then and did not run to any moderators to report his KudoZ rules violation...

I can understand the frustration, but why not report it to the moderators? It isn't a question of "running to them". You're asking them to do their, albeit voluntary, job. Any insult is against the rules, as are other remarks of a personal nature. It's a shame you didn't report him. If he's annoying loads of other people too, and they all report him, administrative action of some sort will be taken sooner or later. Individual cases are for the moderator to see to. If you suspect this person of multiple offences - as you do - you should draw together a few representative samples and raise a support request. Paid staff members will then investigate.

There's really no need to amend the rules just because one or two individuals try to bend them in their own favour. That's what I feel, anyway.


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MultiPro  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:48
Member (2006)
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
The crux of the matter Dec 6, 2016

Sheila Wilson wrote:

Of course it's strange that a French native speaker prefers to write in English, but not unknown, especially in someone who has lived many years in an English speaking country. I don't see any problem with using English for English to French KudoZ questions - other then in the proposed answer, of course.


First off, thank you, Sheila, for your past contributions to the EN>FR Kudoz. Sometimes a native English speaker like yourself would come and shed a much-needed light on a question or the source text. The native English outlook and input are very valuable to shed a light and a new/different perspective. I have been as others inspired by such explanations and views to propose an answer. Some native English participants are very humble. They would suggest very delicately and humbly a solution. They would do so indicating a very low confidence and apologizing in advance and leaving it up to natives to fine tune it. WE as a group wholeheartedly welcome them and appreciate very much their point of view.

The crux of the matter is that the person in question is overbearing and obnoxious to MANY of us. He is British, hence a native English speaker. The other one purports to be a dual French native but also peer comments exclusively in English!!
We don't mind an occasional comment in English or posting relevant English references that help clarify a question. It becomes really problematic when people make it a habit to ONLY peer comment and discuss in English in this French-target forum with French speakers, many of whom are uncomfortable answering back in English...

As I mentioned earlier, the English debate within a French forum creates a disconnect and a MAJOR distraction. Imagine you are thinking and writing in English and someone comments and/or argues with you exclusively in German or Chinese on a subject of common interest to all. This dual language battle (it is NOT a dialogue at this point) impairs a true communication and disrupts the flow of discussion. Take it this way, would you like a foreigner come to your house and impose his way of life on you, namely his language (literally and figuratively), dictate rules in your own household, act as he owns your house, postures/pontificates holier-than-thouly, never admits any mistaken views or mistakes, criticize everything that you do in it, demean, belittle or disrespect you? Not content with taking over your house, he starts now questioning your visitors, their intent, their legitimacy or right to visit you and openly speculates that the products they offer you for consideration are counterfeit not authentic products. Imagine further that he is extremely argumentative/vindictive, pummels you and other tenants with his argumentative tirades day in day out, but when you "dare" finally to respond, he rushes to the custodians of the building or to his contacts in high places (i.e. those in the site management or close to the landlord) to complain about your response to his verbal harrassment? He knows how to play the system and prompts them into action simply by saying that you violate the rules and terms* of the lease...
I trust you would relate.
*Pun intended
Kindest regards!

















[Edited at 2016-12-07 15:01 GMT]


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MultiPro  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:48
Member (2006)
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
NOT in this business Dec 7, 2016

[quote]Sheila Wilson wrote:

I can understand the frustration, but why not report it to the moderators? It isn't a question of "running to them". You're asking them to do their, albeit voluntary, job. Any insult is against the rules, as are other remarks of a personal nature. It's a shame you didn't report him. If he's annoying loads of other people too, and they all report him, administrative action of some sort will be taken sooner or later. Individual cases are for the moderator to see to. If you suspect this person of multiple offences - as you do - you should draw together a few representative samples and raise a support request. Paid staff members will then investigate.

To tell you the truth Sheila, I, personally think we should not involve moderators in adults discussions in a linguistic forum for each and every argument or lively debate. Perhaps it is just me, but I feel that grown adults should be able to handle it themselves. I feel it is frankly childish, silly, immature and snitch like, to run (yes in the case of our fellow, he has definitely RUN to moderators/site staff and called them to his rescue to save face in a retort or argument --because he has done so, close to a dozen of times with me). In some of my answers to him that he managed to have had hidden, there was NO insult, none whatsoever. He was simply not able to stand losing an argument (losing face) or have his supreme "authority" challenged or his ego rattled.
I am not in the business of running to moderators and taking up their valuable time, even in cases like this. He has done so many of these offenses that I sincerely do not have time nor the energy to compile his numerous and egregious examples. I would have to get paid!! But others more active than I could certainly compile evidence and submit it. Still... I think that mods should only be called in extreme cases where there is true violation of the rules and profanities or irreparable harm being done. Otherwise, they should not allow themselves to be dragged in by a master puppeteer.

puppeteer3_700
Thanks for your contribution to this debate. Bonne soirée/Bonne journée.


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Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 17:48
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
Well, you clearly need to do something Dec 7, 2016

MultiPro wrote:
I am not in the business of running to moderators and taking up their valuable time, even in cases like this. He has done so many of these offenses that I sincerely do not have time nor the energy to compile his numerous and egregious examples. I would have to get paid!! But others more active than I could certainly compile evidence and submit it. Still... I think that mods should only be called in extreme cases where there is true violation of the rules and profanities or irreparable harm being done. Otherwise, they should not allow themselves to be dragged in by a master puppeteer.

You're obviously very upset at this person's actions, so why not - just this once - take advantage of the structure put in place by the site for that very purpose? It seems a real shame not to. You could cut those puppeteer strings here and now with a factual support ticket. It only needs a few of the worst examples to get staff (not moderators) to look more closely at his behaviour. I'm sure that would be far more effective than calling on the site to complicate rules that most KudoZ participants are happy playing by.


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