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Airbrushed out of the charts (ProZ.com team: Full leader list will be made accessible again)
Thread poster: Lancashireman

Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 11:03
Member
English to Italian
No change May 27, 2018

Michael Beijer wrote:

So how about this change: keep it the way it was (with non-members shown at the top, if they deserve it), but make it so that people with high rankings are only boosted up the rankings in the "Translator Directory" + new "ProZ Find" system if they are paying members. This seems like a reasonable compromise.


What you are suggesting is actually to keep things as they were... No change.

Directory searches have always shown this on the top right corner of the search results:


ProZ.com member (xxxx): 1 2 3 4 5
Non-member (yyyyy): 1 2 3 4 5


With the first page shown being #1 of the "ProZ.com member" list. That means paying users were already presented before non-paying users... (and I guess the new "Find" search follows a similar approach)


IMHO the "kudoz leaders" section (linked by Lancashireman) has little to do with client searches (and should be kept as it was, with ALL users appearing, regardless of paying status), but IF, for some reason, someone really feels strongly about this, and wants to discriminate between paying and non-paying users there too, then I would at the very least like to have a leaderboard for paying users, one for non-paying users, and one for all users.

Simply sweeping non-paying kudoz contributors into oblivion, with no recognition whatsoever, seems rather ungenerous (and uncalled for) to me, and, as I said, I would simply leave things as they were before this umpteen (unannounced) change.


 

writeaway  Identity Verified
Dutch to English
+ ...
However May 27, 2018

At the moment at least, non-members ARE still listed in the search for translators section. And there are a lot more non-members than payers (as in over 10x), in my pairs anyway. So when outsourcers have had an unfortunate experience or two by choosing visible Kudoz kings and queens, they may start to look a bit further.
Imo, Kudoz pointz have lost a lot of their meaning nowadays in any case so I'm not too concerned about not showing up on the list of stars. It's now more of a game and th
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At the moment at least, non-members ARE still listed in the search for translators section. And there are a lot more non-members than payers (as in over 10x), in my pairs anyway. So when outsourcers have had an unfortunate experience or two by choosing visible Kudoz kings and queens, they may start to look a bit further.
Imo, Kudoz pointz have lost a lot of their meaning nowadays in any case so I'm not too concerned about not showing up on the list of stars. It's now more of a game and the same people tend to answer all the time, with askers simply choosing the person with the most convincing answer-selling argument and/or pal/peer agrees or the one with the most Kudoz pointz.
What is unfortunate and not very nice is the stealth way non-payers have been airbrushed out of the hall of fame lists. An announcement of the policy change would have been a more acceptable way to go.
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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 11:03
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
I agree May 27, 2018

Lancashireman wrote:
The paying members have all moved up as the non-paying members have been airbrushed out of the records.


I agree that this is very bad. The same thing happened in my language pair (and since the list of paying members is rather short in my language pair, the KudoZ leader list has also become quite short). The leader list should list everyone who contributed, not only paying members. Non-paying members/users put in a lot of effort that also benefits paying members. The recent spate of crackdowns on non-paying members/user does not benefit anyone.

writeaway wrote:
What is unfortunate and not very nice is the stealth way non-payers have been airbrushed out of the hall of fame lists. An announcement of the policy change would have been a more acceptable way to go.


The stealthiness does not bother me per se, but the policy change itself serves no useful purpose and is detrimental to all of us.

[Edited at 2018-05-27 16:02 GMT]


 

Herbmione Granger
Germany
Local time: 11:03
French to English
+ ...
Did someone mention lunch? May 27, 2018

Kudoz rankings have nothing to do with a free lunch. I've only received Brownie points for applying my expertise, which took many years and a large amount of USD to cultivate, without charge, and I don't want any actual brownies from the runners of this site. I can prepare very tasty, and probably more satisfying, food for myself, thank you.

The rankings are the closest ethical thing to "translator approval ratings" from fellow translators that this site can provide. To conflate the
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Kudoz rankings have nothing to do with a free lunch. I've only received Brownie points for applying my expertise, which took many years and a large amount of USD to cultivate, without charge, and I don't want any actual brownies from the runners of this site. I can prepare very tasty, and probably more satisfying, food for myself, thank you.

The rankings are the closest ethical thing to "translator approval ratings" from fellow translators that this site can provide. To conflate these for some and hide these for others is unethical. Ask people why they don't use Facebook anymore.

What I would like to also see are incentives to increase participation.

Why is a mature and lively Kudoz culture, including ugly ducklings, desirable?
In the Age of the Internet, anyone can falsely claim to be anything (ex: native English speaker, PhD holder), sometimes unintentionally because they don't understand what a term signifies to the significant party, without detection. However, they cannot fake their interactions with others. I would not reduce any person to their interactions, merely assume that competent (high-end) employers and recruiters would be interested in how you'd approach translation problems and whether you possess the skills, training and, in the case of highly specialized work, knowledge of the field (and perhaps currentness in it) that you claim. There might even be an indication of how pleasant/unpleasant you would be to work with.

Some food for thought.
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Daryo
 

Germaine  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 06:03
English to French
+ ...
Incredible! May 27, 2018

Dan Lucas wrote:

It seems to me to be hard to justify treating such people in the same way as paying members.


Well... I take a look at this: https://www.proz.com/professional-membership and I confess, I fail to see where non-members are treated "in the same way as paying members".

On the other hand, I can see that UNLIMITED "Term research and assistance" and "Networking features" are two of the "benefits" of the membership packages SOLD by Proz and PAID FOR by members.

So, if I understand correctly, VALUABLE answers given for FREE, multilingual translation memories of thousands and thousands of terms built by VOLUNTEERS, members AND "guests", and freely used by PROZ to expand its business, are now sold without giving credit to some of the authors, and every Kudoz leaders charts are now a cheat for members, guests and potential clients as well. Wow! What a sound decision! I can't wait for the outburst of joy as "guests" discover that their time and expertise are not even worth their signature!

And at this moment, (soon-to-be-anonymous?) non-(paying)-members are the UNPAID organizers of 7 of the 12 upcoming powwows, another "benefit" SOLD to members!...

Proz is a business, oh yeah! No doubt about it! Too bad that business ethics and loyalty are not on the business plan!


Daryo
 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 06:03
SITE FOUNDER
Hasty release -- view of all leaders will be made accessible again this week May 28, 2018

Hi folks,

A hasty release is to blame here.

The suggestion for this development came in last week. The rationale was, "All promotion features should be reserved for members".

The list of all leaders was not supposed to go away, though. We were just going to add the member-specific view.

Somehow this got miscommunicated, and this release was made late Friday. The list of all leaders will be made accessible again Tuesday (when US staff are back a
... See more
Hi folks,

A hasty release is to blame here.

The suggestion for this development came in last week. The rationale was, "All promotion features should be reserved for members".

The list of all leaders was not supposed to go away, though. We were just going to add the member-specific view.

Somehow this got miscommunicated, and this release was made late Friday. The list of all leaders will be made accessible again Tuesday (when US staff are back at work.)
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Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 11:03
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
Thank you Henry! May 28, 2018

Dear Henry - THANK YOU!

I wondered from the start whether it was a mistake.

We appreciate that running a site costs money, and someone has to pay... but I was sure that if we kept the pot boiling long enough, someone would see that removing former paying members from KudoZ lists was not going to help!

PS I really meant my suggestion about flagging Sven and other veterans who have contributed a lot over the years. Do they really have to be vetted every time
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Dear Henry - THANK YOU!

I wondered from the start whether it was a mistake.

We appreciate that running a site costs money, and someone has to pay... but I was sure that if we kept the pot boiling long enough, someone would see that removing former paying members from KudoZ lists was not going to help!

PS I really meant my suggestion about flagging Sven and other veterans who have contributed a lot over the years. Do they really have to be vetted every time they contribute to the forums?
But this is OT - I will post a suggestion elsewhere.
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Robin Levey
Chile
Local time: 07:03
Spanish to English
+ ...
True colours – Shades of mercantile tinkering May 28, 2018

Henry Dotterer wrote:

The rationale was, "All promotion features should be reserved for members".


Thank you for showing your true colours.

I note, Henry, that you like to state under your profile pic in the margin of this thread (and everywhere else on this site) that you are the “Site Founder”. That suggests to me that you place significant value on the origins of what you have built up over the years. As others here have said, much of what you “founded” was built upon the efforts of people whose only contribution has been time and altruism. You will deny that at your peril.

In this “hasty release” of something that will no doubt become official and permanent sometime very soon, you have again displayed contempt for the hundreds or thousands of volunteers who have helped you build up your business over the past two decades. Volunteers like myself who have never had paid membership as well as those who once did pay and now don’t, but nevertheless continue to support Proz and its users (regardless of whether they pay or not) though the forums, Kudoz, etc.

Sad to say, what you are doing here – tinkering with information display algorithms in the unwarranted belief that you know better than site users themselves what are looking for – is very much part of a trend – as this news item about YouTube confirms:
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44279189

The “we know better than you what you need” trend here on Proz is also in evidence here:
https://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_translator_coop/324940-proz_find™_new_freelancer_directory_released_in_alpha_stage_feedback_sought.html
and here:
https://www.proz.com/forum/site_forums/325399-like_share_buttons.html

All these examples of “tinkering with algorithms” and the arbitrary repurposing of data collected over almost two decades are built not on the bedrock of your longest-serving contributors’ altruism, but instead on sand. Shifting sand.

Oh! – and one other thing. Why have you found it necessary also to “air-brush” this forum thread from the “Recent Posts” list? Aren’t the comments made here by several of your longest-serving users/members worthy of wider attention?

RL


Daryo
 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 06:03
SITE FOUNDER
I quoted May 28, 2018

Robin Levey wrote:

Henry Dotterer wrote:
The rationale was, "All promotion features should be reserved for members".

Thank you for showing your true colours.

Actually, I'm quoting from the person who made the suggestion. But I don't disagree that paying members should be given an advantage when it comes to advertising/promotion. That's the business model here.


 
Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Unedited since a week

Robin Levey
Chile
Local time: 07:03
Spanish to English
+ ...
"advantaged" is not the same as "reserved" May 28, 2018

Henry Dotterer wrote:

Robin Levey wrote:

Henry Dotterer wrote:
The rationale was, "All promotion features should be reserved for members".

Thank you for showing your true colours.

Actually, I'm quoting from the person who made the suggestion. But I don't disagree that paying members should be given an advantage when it comes to advertising/promotion. That's the business model here.


Actually, I don't disagree "that paying members should be given an advantage when it comes to advertising/promotion". The same thing happens if I place a paid display ad in the Yellow Pages. And, indeed, the site has given differentiated levels of "advertising/promotion" for as long as I can remember (if not always).

But the stated "rationale" (which you stated as fact, even if, as you now say, it was quote from someone else) is that "All promotion features should be reserved for members".

And that is what is precisely happening here. You no longer just offer "advantages" to paying members, but Proz as a whole - including the very significant resources provided to you by non-payers over the years - is becoming "reserved" for the payers' exclusive benefit while the ROW steadily disappears from view.
RL


 

Christel Zipfel  Identity Verified
Member (2004)
Italian to German
+ ...
Strange, this thread isn't any more among the most recent forums May 28, 2018

I found it because I read it before.

Another bug?

Glad however that the "full list will be back again". Like it is now it is an insult for all those who have contributed a lot but aren't paying members any more.


 

Robin Levey
Chile
Local time: 07:03
Spanish to English
+ ...
Not being notified either May 28, 2018

Christel Zipfel wrote:

this thread isn't any more among the most recent forums

I found it because I read it before.

Another bug?


Also, although I checked the "Track this thread" box (and it does appear in the list of tracked threads available via my profile), I didn't receive notifications of either my own post (which had to be vetted before publication) nor Henry's response - nor, indeed, your subsequent post, Christel.

Not a good sign...

RL


 

Christel Zipfel  Identity Verified
Member (2004)
Italian to German
+ ...
It's not possible to track it either, indeed May 29, 2018

Robin Levey wrote:


Also, although I checked the "Track this thread" box (and it does appear in the list of tracked threads available via my profile), I didn't receive notifications of either my own post (which had to be vetted before publication) nor Henry's response - nor, indeed, your subsequent post, Christel.

Not a good sign...

RL


I tried and I got an errore message.
Bookmarking the thread seems the only way to find it.


 

writeaway  Identity Verified
Dutch to English
+ ...
Not being able to track could be a general glitch May 29, 2018

I sent a couple of support requests because I haven't been able to track any forum for well over a year. Nothing was ever done to correct the problem. It started when I was still a payer.
But it's true that this forum posting has totally disappeared off the radar.


 
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