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Airbrushed out of the charts (ProZ.com team: Full leader list will be made accessible again)
Thread poster: Lancashireman

Lancashireman  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:17
German to English
May 26

Overnight, an unannounced change has been made to the KudoZ charts. As a non-member, my user name is now displayed in black as “You”, but the only other user names I can see are those of paying members (in red). I can no longer see the All-Time leader on the German-English board, who has accumulated twice as many points as the second-placed contributor. I asked another site user to look at the charts, and he confirmed that my name is no longer visible. The paying members have all moved up as the non-paying members have been airbrushed out of the records. What were the management thinking of when they decided to rewrite the history books?

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2018-05-28 01:53 GMT]


 

tmana
Local time: 10:17


Posted via
ProZ.com Mobile


The site is for paying members May 26

That this site is made for the paying members, and if we want to keep using the site and developing a profile, we'd better pay up.

FWIW, I get a "features are only available to paying members" screen when I log in from my mobile.


 

Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:17
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
There is no guarantee that a free lunch will continue to be free May 26

Lancashireman wrote:
What were the management thinking of when they decided to rewrite the history books?

Probably that they would like to convert non-paying members to paying members, using KudoZ as a bludgeon?

ProZ is not a charity, or an industry association, but a business (albeit a rather slow-moving one) that presumably would like to maximise the return on the resources it has invested in this site.

I don't participate in KudoZ, so I am indifferent, but presumably this KudoZ ranking means something to you, otherwise you would not have made this post. If it is in some way valuable to you, then why not pay for membership? You might argue that this is a sudden change in the rules (if it is confirmed as such) but it looks as if it only affects those who do not pay anything to ProZ. It seems to me to be hard to justify treating such people in the same way as paying members.

Regards,
Dan


 

Lancashireman  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:17
German to English
TOPIC STARTER
Truthful representations of the rankings May 26

Well, Dan, I carefully phrased my posting to avoid any semblance of personal offence. As we are repeatedly told (and who could in all decency disagree?), KudoZ is there to help the askers. Presumably, the same goes for the charts. If these are no longer truthful representations of the rankings, then surely those who consult them are being wilfully misled?

 

Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 16:17
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
Surely that is a mistake? May 26

It looks as if you are right.

PLEASE, staff, can we see all contributors in the lists again?

Over the years, a lot of valuable work has been done and excellent KudoZ answers have been given by contributors who were paying members at the time, even if they have retired or moved on now.

KudoZ was really important in the early days of Proz.com, when there were not so many other resources and online dictionaries as there are now. No Facebook groups, no LinkedIn... and whatever people spend time on now.
Some of the early members were real pioneers, so please give them the credit they deserve!

Where are Susanne Blangsted and Lone in Danish-English-Danish?
Plus all the others I don't want to forget, and all those in other language pairs, whom I never got to know, but others did.

Apart from that, contributing to KudoZ has always been one of the ways of being seen - in fact it was my main method of marketing for a long time.

Non-paying members may come round to paying if they feel appreciated, but even if not, when their contributions are helpful, please give them the credit they deserve! We all provide free content on the site, and those of us who pay have a lot of other privileges already.


icon_smile.gificon_smile.gificon_smile.gif

[Edited at 2018-05-26 12:33 GMT]


 

neilmac  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 16:17
Spanish to English
+ ...
Sauce for the goose May 26

Dan Lucas wrote:

I don't participate in KudoZ, so I am indifferent, ... It seems to me to be hard to justify treating such people in the same way as paying members.

Regards,
Dan


On the other hand, kudoz is the main reason I visit proz. That and the forums. I'm not interested in finding new clients, networking or becoming more businesslike and professional. However, I do enjoy helping out with other people's translation queries and really appreciate being able to consult/brainstorm colleagues, whether paying members or otherwise. And the quiz-type awarding of points for the most helpful answer also encourages me, as an inveterate pub quizzer. Actually, I wouldn't mind paying a smaller fee to enjoy these aspects, but the annual tithe seems a bit much for the limited use I make of it.
icon_smile.gif


 

Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 16:17
Member
English to Italian
Charity handouts... -_- May 26

Dan Lucas wrote:

ProZ is not a charity, or an industry association, but a business (albeit a rather slow-moving one) that presumably would like to maximise the return on the resources it has invested in this site.

I don't participate in KudoZ, so I am indifferent, but presumably this KudoZ ranking means something to you, otherwise you would not have made this post. If it is in some way valuable to you, then why not pay for membership? You might argue that this is a sudden change in the rules (if it is confirmed as such) but it looks as if it only affects those who do not pay anything to ProZ. It seems to me to be hard to justify treating such people in the same way as paying members.


Kudoz points have been used for directory ranking purposes for ages, and paying users have always been given priority over non-paying users, so much so that a paying user with 1 kudoz point would be given priority over a non-paying user with 1 gazillion kudoz points, so ProZ has always (AFAIK) adopted the business logic you describe and endorse, and has always treated "such people" differently from "paying people". This is something different. It's basic recognition for help given to others, without even considering what Christine was saying about providing free content (and traffic) to the site...

And by the way, whatever you may say, endlessly and continuously revolutionizing rules, criteria, features, service offerings, etc., especially without even discussing or merely informing anyone (whether paying or not) affected by such changes seems hardly good business practice (or just respectful...), and I also believe that uncertainty is in itself a disvalue in business, as a general rule.


 

Sven Petersson  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 16:17
English to Swedish
+ ...
Cutting off the nose to spite the face! May 26

This “business logic” is better known as “cutting off the nose to spite the face”.
Novice translators, who need the help of seasoned but retired translators, will no longer get that help.
ProZ started by stripping dead translators of their KudoZ honours, and surprise, surprise, they did not protest.
What’s next? Charging the members, a commission on jobs found on ProZ?
Who am I? See https://www.proz.com/profile/7599?popup=kudoz&show_nav=true
Goodbye , and thanks for all the fishes!


 

Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 16:17
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
Another great contributor can't make his voice heard... May 26

Sven Petersson, another of the all-time leading contributors to Swedish Kudoz, is a case in point.
He mailed me this afternoon to say his comment was stored in the database, awaiting review by a moderator.

Scandinavian KudoZ would simply not have been the same without Sven's expert comments - and also his wit and humour. He could send a sharp 'disagree' too, but only if it was richly deserved.

Here it was everyone else who delivered the humour, but this is vintage Kudoz…
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/swedish_to_english/food_drink/1943704-rotak_or_rotaker.html

His comment is 'Cutting off your nose to spite your face' - and I can't wait to see what he was trying to say in his original post.

Could someone please permanently flag Sven Petersson and other veterans like him, so that they can contribute straight away, even if they feel they have done their duty and are not paying members any more?
The kind of people who built up the site back in the day, and who can still make a pithy contribution - they don't need vetting. They are the reason why some of us still keep using the site...


 

Helen Shiner  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:17
Member (2008)
German to English
+ ...
@Lancashireman May 26

What an utterly shocking way to treat people who have contributed so extensively to the success of the Kudoz aspect of Proz.com. The site owners could at the very least have notified the people involved. I hope it is just a temporary blip, an inadvertent result of all the many changes taking place at present.

I am a paying member, but fast considering removing myself from this website.


 

writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
HEAR HERE!! May 27

[quote]Christine Andersen wrote:

It looks as if you are right.

PLEASE, staff, can we see all contributors in the lists again?

Over the years, a lot of valuable work has been done and excellent KudoZ answers have been given by contributors who were paying members at the time, even if they have retired or moved on now.

KudoZ was really important in the early days of Proz.com, when there were not so many other resources and online dictionaries as there are now. No Facebook groups, no LinkedIn... and whatever people spend time on now.
Some of the early members were real pioneers, so please give them the credit they deserve!

Where are Susanne Blangsted and Lone in Danish-English-Danish?
Plus all the others I don't want to forget, and all those in other language pairs, whom I never got to know, but others did.

Apart from that, contributing to KudoZ has always been one of the ways of being seen - in fact it was my main method of marketing for a long time.

Non-paying members may come round to paying if they feel appreciated, but even if not, when their contributions are helpful, please give them the credit they deserve! We all provide free content on the site, and those of us who pay have a lot of other privileges already.




icon_smile.gificon_smile.gificon_smile.gif



/quote]

It's been obvious for a while that non-payers, now referred to by Proz as non-members are being to made feel unwelcome and unworthy on this now high-powered Zite for payers and super-payers. Paying is apparently what puts the P in professional.
Quite a few non-payers are actually former payers who have been on the site for well over a decade and helped make it a go-to place for professional translators.
This may be biting the hand that feeds you, but dissing and discounting people who don't or no longer pay also seems to me to be "cutting off your nose to spite your face" as Sven says. Imo, this could end up knocking the bottom out of Proz as a site for pro translators.

icon_eek.gificon_confused.gificon_rolleyes.gif

[Edited at 2018-05-27 10:11 GMT]


 

Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:17
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
... May 27

Lancashireman wrote:
If these are no longer truthful representations of the rankings, then surely those who consult them are being wilfully misled?

That's an interesting point, and not one that I had considered.

neilmac wrote:
However, I do enjoy helping out with other people's translation queries and really appreciate being able to consult/brainstorm colleagues, whether paying members or otherwise.

Of course, I accept that many people find KudoZ useful, but in my pair it seems to be abused by people making a large number of queries to offset their lack of knowledge in areas in which they are arguably not qualified to be accepting work. I don't think such behaviour, or enabling such behaviour, is professional. I don't like the gamification angle either, although I recognise that this is exactly what some people find appealing.

Mirko Mainardi wrote:
And by the way, whatever you may say, endlessly and continuously revolutionizing rules, criteria, features, service offerings, etc., especially without even discussing or merely informing anyone (whether paying or not) affected by such changes seems hardly good business practice (or just respectful...), and I also believe that uncertainty is in itself a disvalue in business, as a general rule.

I agree completely that frequent, sudden changes and uncertainty are usually not conducive to good business. Nor do I really have an opinion on whether this change is positive or negative. I suspect anything that drastically limits ProZ participation will turn out to be negative over the long term.

Dan


 

Lancashireman  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:17
German to English
TOPIC STARTER
The Hollow Crown May 27

For readers of this thread who don’t regularly check out the charts, there are three of them: 1) Last 3 Months; 2) Last 12 Months; 3) All Time.
https://www.proz.com/?sp=leaders_new

Until about 48 hours ago, the Top Five in the DE-EN All Time chart read as follows:
1 KM
2 SW
3 EK
4 Lancashireman
5 JT

What I see now is:
1 SW
2 EK
You
3 JT
4 JM

Does this mean that I am 2.5th in the All Time list? Obviously not, because lurking out of sight is the legendary KM on twice as many points as the newly crowned leader.

It seems that “All Time” now no longer means “All Time”. By analogy with Formula 1 motor racing, if your membership of the Grand Prix Drivers’ Association lapsed, you would not expect to see your world championship achievements wiped from the public records or, more bizarrely, made visible to only “You”.

I urge the person responsible for this decision to rethink.


 

Christine Andersen  Identity Verified
Denmark
Local time: 16:17
Member (2003)
Danish to English
+ ...
Mutatis mutandi, same here May 27

Lancashireman wrote:

For readers of this thread who don’t regularly check out the charts, there are three of them: 1) Last 3 Months; 2) Last 12 Months; 3) All Time.
https://www.proz.com/?sp=leaders_new


It seems that “All Time” now no longer means “All Time”. By analogy with Formula 1 motor racing, if your membership of the Grand Prix Drivers’ Association lapsed, you would not expect to see your world championship achievements wiped from the public records or, more bizarrely, made visible to only “You”.

I urge the person responsible for this decision to rethink.


I don't know where I stood in the All Time statistics a week ago, but I am suddenly All Time no. 2 in Danish to English, and I don't think that is fair - I never really reached that level.

I have been far less active in Kudoz the last couple of years than previously, as I am winding down a little to retirement.

Apart from anything else, being top of the charts is not an undiluted advantage!
That position attracts job offers which I am not really interested in. As a part-time pensioner I am very picky indeed about who I work for.

I am happy to be wherever on the list my contribution justifies - I have put some time and effort into KudoZ as a way of paying back what others have done to help me. But I do not like to usurp the place of someone else who has done more. (It also wounds my vanity to think I will disappear like the morning dew on January 6 the year I cease to subscribe! icon_biggrin.gif )

PS @ Sven - good to see the real beating heart is still beating, even if you now use a portrait instead of that eye-catching pump...


 

Michael Beijer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:17
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
hmm May 27

Wow, so I am now #1 in all three categories (Last 3 Months, Last 12 Months, All Time), which is ridiculous. Before the change, I was already #1 in Last 3 Months, Last 12 Months (because I answer a lot of questions), but being #1 in All Time is just plain silly.

However, I do use this site to find work, and being highly ranked means clients have an easier time finding (via the "Translator Directory" + new "ProZ Find" system), so the change has obviously worked out in my favour. And there is something to be said for the idea that if you are using the site to make money, you probably should pay the annual fee.

So how about this change: keep it the way it was (with non-members shown at the top, if they deserve it), but make it so that people with high rankings are only boosted up the rankings in the "Translator Directory" + new "ProZ Find" system if they are paying members. This seems like a reasonable compromise.

Michael


~

How clients find us:

Translator Directory: https://www.proz.com/translator-directory/
ProZ Find (alpha): https://www.proz.com/find


 
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