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'dictionary' questions allowed but 'real' translation problems not allowed? (staff: 'not true')
Thread poster: xxxLia Fail
xxxLia Fail  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 03:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
May 22, 2005

I have just a posted a sentence, which being ES is probably twice as lengthy as an equivalent EN sentence (and also coming from a poorly written repetitive text I have been working on all day)

I have been told that it's too long, that sentences of more than 10 words 'should be posted as jobs'!!!

Right, no problem, I will just ask a couple of friends to give me their opinion and that's that. Not to worry! And they won't charge me....and I wouldn't charge them in return for a similar favour.

But considering how many ridiculously simple questions are posted, inc. questions on items to be found in any dictionary, not to mention in the excellent online dictionaries available, and considering that this site has pretensions to being a site for 'professionals', I don't understand why simplistic, time-wasting questions are allowed, whereas the kind of issue that causes real translation difficulties is not???!!!!

As for 10 words, in which language, given that some language say little in 10 words and others say a lot in 5 words?

What's more, I wasn't actually asking for a translation of any single word or phrase, just suggestions re the draft I had provided, in other words noone has to actually DO anything (like look up or research links etc), just give me their expert opinion!!!!

I have heard similar about phrases, mind, like someone telling me to 'break up' a collocation and ask the questions one at a time!

SURELY, as translators, and not lexicographers, we need to be talking about 'units of meaning' and not about words?

A totally spurious rule, please get real!!!!!



[Edited at 2005-05-22 20:20]

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2005-05-23 00:43]


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Marijke Singer  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:43
Dutch to English
+ ...
Post it here May 22, 2005

Post it here and I will certainly have a look and try to help.

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Sonja Tomaskovic  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 03:43
English to German
+ ...
Agree May 22, 2005

I agree with you here. Some recent discussions on this topic have shown that more and more Proz.com members are having a strange attitude towards the whole KudoZ thing.

I don't want to point to any individual here but I find it alarming how many suggestions and complaints are posted every day. Furthermore, it is becoming clearer that a lot of people are feeling offended by questions from others. There are not only the point-grabbers or those clearly taking advantage of others to have their jobs done, no, we have arrived at a stage were every asker/answerer is under suspicion.

With all these ridiculous postings lately, I strongly believe we should better close the KudoZ section for some time. Let's take some time to cool down.

Sonja


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xxxLia Fail  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 03:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks Marijke May 22, 2005

Marijke Singer wrote:

Post it here and I will certainly have a look and try to help.



Thanks Marijke, I would appreciate your help, certainly:-)

The 'rule' doesn't actually stop people from answering/helping, so I won't re-post the 'question' here, as this is the place where we discuss issues not individual translation problems.

The link is: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/1039097?float=1


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xxxLia Fail  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 03:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
thanks Sonja May 22, 2005

Sonja Tomaskovic wrote:

I agree with you here. Some recent discussions on this topic have shown that more and more Proz.com members are having a strange attitude towards the whole KudoZ thing.

I don't want to point to any individual here but I find it alarming how many suggestions and complaints are posted every day. Furthermore, it is becoming clearer that a lot of people are feeling offended by questions from others. There are not only the point-grabbers or those clearly taking advantage of others to have their jobs done, no, we have arrived at a stage were every asker/answerer is under suspicion.

With all these ridiculous postings lately, I strongly believe we should better close the KudoZ section for some time. Let's take some time to cool down.

Sonja


Hi Sonja,

I'm not actually offended at the individual (a bit surprised, maybe, as I know him to be a valuable and respectable answerer), but the whole notion of what constitutes a VALID and ALLOWABLE KudoZ question - PRO questionj indeed - is really and truly questionable. I am contrasting my 'rejected' question with what is 'allowed' to be asked on this site.

There are rules, and they are there to prevent abuse, fair enough, but it's really throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I for one, WISH wholeheartedly, that people who study and claim to know languages, had dictionaries or knew how to use an online one, instead of cluttering up Kudoz and the glossary. But surely the real problems start when dictionaries DON'T HELP! And surely that's what KudoZ is for.

And my question was just such a problem!

If it's a question of someone like me, say, wanting to know how to say Happy Birthday in Swahili, well then, create a special forum for what we might call 'trivia'.


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Andrea Ali  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 22:43
Member (2003)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Agree May 22, 2005

Hi, Ailish!

A question that certainly deserves our effort. Unfortunately I am not an expert on the subject but I am trying to figure it out.

Cheers,
Andrea


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Sonja Tomaskovic  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 03:43
English to German
+ ...
.. May 22, 2005

Ailish Maher wrote:
I'm not actually offended at the individual (a bit surprised, maybe, as I know him to be a valuable and respectable answerer), ...


In fact, I was referring to those who are offended by KudoZ askers. It seems to me that more and more people are actually feeling offended if someone asks a KudoZ questions, no matter whether it's a valid one or not. That was my point.

Sorry, I hadn't expressed that clearly.

Sonja


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xxxLia Fail  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 03:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
being offended/offensive May 22, 2005

Sonja Tomaskovic wrote:

Ailish Maher wrote:
I'm not actually offended at the individual (a bit surprised, maybe, as I know him to be a valuable and respectable answerer), ...


In fact, I was referring to those who are offended by KudoZ askers. It seems to me that more and more people are actually feeling offended if someone asks a KudoZ questions, no matter whether it's a valid one or not. That was my point.

Sorry, I hadn't expressed that clearly.

Sonja


OK Sonja, see what you mean. Personally, 99 times out of a 100, if I don't like a question, I don't comment, I just depart:-). The 1 time in a 100, I might make an acerbic comment, but I reckon that hasn't happened more than once or twice in the years I have been using ProZ.

And I never hold to hard-and-fast rules about language, of all things.......:-)

And the whole notion of rules existing, in fact, just seems to cause problems between users, rather than control how/why/by whom/in what way the site is used (except in the case of flagrant abuse, I suppose) becuase at the end of the day, people just ignore them (e.g. despite the 'rule' about 10 words, a few people have, thankfully, answered my question).


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Ines Garcia Botana  Identity Verified
Local time: 22:43
Member
English to Spanish
+ ...
Same as Marijke May 22, 2005

Post it here, I'll try to help you.

Cheers!
Inés


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Andrea Appel
Canada
Local time: 21:43
English to German
+ ...
I totally agree with you May 22, 2005

Sonja Tomaskovic wrote:

I agree with you here. Some recent discussions on this topic have shown that more and more Proz.com members are having a strange attitude towards the whole KudoZ thing.

I don't want to point to any individual here but I find it alarming how many suggestions and complaints are posted every day. Furthermore, it is becoming clearer that a lot of people are feeling offended by questions from others. There are not only the point-grabbers or those clearly taking advantage of others to have their jobs done, no, we have arrived at a stage were every asker/answerer is under suspicion.

With all these ridiculous postings lately, I strongly believe we should better close the KudoZ section for some time. Let's take some time to cool down.

Sonja


Be careful I could be a point grabber, or KudoZ abuser (-;


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:43
SITE FOUNDER
Rules exist for both situations May 22, 2005

While I see your point, Ailish, I would like to clarify that it is not true that one is allowed and the other is not; there are rules both for dictionary questions and for length of questions. Past situations gave rise to both rules, both make sense, and both are necessary. I quote them below for reference.

If you have segments of more than 10 words that you want help on in the future, I recommend you take out the phrase or two that deserves to be the center of focus, and include the rest of the sentence as context. Askers will recognize the professional nature of your question and give appropriate assistance.

....

Rule 2.1 says:
"Use KudoZ to ask for a translation only after you have consulted the KudoZ archives (KudoZ > KudoZ Search from the main menu), dictionaries, search engines and any other commonly available resources that might be helpful. If you find translations elsewhere and still wish to post a KudoZ question, include the information you have found and explain what further information you seek."

Rule 2.2 says:
"2.2 - Texts posted as KudoZ questions should be no longer than 10 words or so. Longer texts should be posted as jobs. (Jobs > Post a Job)"

For other rules, see http://proz.com/kudozrules


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jrb
Local time: 02:43
'dictionary' questions allowed but 'real' translation problems not allowed? May 22, 2005

Hi everyone,

I completely agree with Ailish. The word limit on phrases IS arbitrary; although I guess you have to draw the line somewhere, and even now postings longer than the limit are not uncommon... But in this case I didn't feel that Ailish was taking advantage, firstly because she is a member and contributor to the site, and secondly because she was asking for a second opinion on her draft translation of a sentence rather than an actual translation - and the text looked to be a pretty tough one!

Yes, some of the postings are simple, but, as discussed in another forum, it does allow people with no language knowledge to ask questions. Although I've answered some of these, what I most like about the forum is being able to post or respond to tricky translation problems. Indeed, I wish I'd come across the site earlier, when I'd been completely stumped by some phrases! So I don't think kudoz should be abandoned; and maybe the response to point grabbing is to lower the score for non-pro terms?

Best wishes,

Jessica


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:43
SITE FOUNDER
Right, Jessica May 22, 2005

Jessica Budds wrote:

The word limit on phrases IS arbitrary; although I guess you have to draw the line somewhere


Exactly.


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xxxLia Fail  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 03:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
reply to Henry May 22, 2005

Henry wrote:

While I see your point, Ailish, I would like to clarify that it is not true that one is allowed and the other is not; there are rules both for dictionary questions and for length of questions. Past situations gave rise to both rules, both make sense, and both are necessary. I quote them below for reference.

If you have segments of more than 10 words that you want help on in the future, I recommend you take out the phrase or two that deserves to be the center of focus, and include the rest of the sentence as context. Askers will recognize the professional nature of your question and give appropriate assistance.

....

Rule 2.1 says:
"Use KudoZ to ask for a translation only after you have consulted the KudoZ archives (KudoZ > KudoZ Search from the main menu), dictionaries, search engines and any other commonly available resources that might be helpful. If you find translations elsewhere and still wish to post a KudoZ question, include the information you have found and explain what further information you seek."

Rule 2.2 says:
"2.2 - Texts posted as KudoZ questions should be no longer than 10 words or so. Longer texts should be posted as jobs. (Jobs > Post a Job)"

For other rules, see http://proz.com/kudozrules[/quote]

You're absolutely right Henry, the rules for both situations exist, but as far as I can see they just don't work, just serve as excuses for the self-righteous to 'police' the site, and at the risk of aggravating other members (which they do...big time. Already tonight I have recieved both public and private support from a number of people). The rules themselves are frequently ignored (see my question, for example: despite the rule, and despite the approbium of one member, other members have seen fit to anwer, for which I am thoroughly grateful).

All I know is that I frequently log in to encounter questions that I can only rate as 'thick', to use an Irish turn of phrase, and especially when purporting to come from 'translators'. I just go away again.....a little bit saddened.

So I find it extremely irritating to be told to go and pay someone to solve my real translation difficulty - a complex sentence (note that even if I pared it down to the problem element - as you suggest - it is still over 10 words).

To be honest, it's not even the kind of translation difficulty you can PAY to have resolved (I wouldn't expect anybody to translate some 30 words out of context and expect them to do it correctly, come on!). Only a reliable, trusted colleague (such as one knows from ProZ) would be able to give the reassuring kind of answer I need. Not to mention the possibility of contrasting opinions (or maybe I shoud pay 3 strangers?)

I mentioned above that I have encountered this rigidity before when posting collocations, and being told to go off and post each word separately, becuase a 'rule' says you can't post more than 1 item at a time. Now I encounter it with a sentence for which I provide a translation, and need a general opinion in regard to sense.

It's NOT a translation question in the WORD sense (for that I have dictionaries plus donkey's years' knowledge of Spanish), it's a translation difficulty that has to do with: a lengthy, somewhat ambiguous source sentence, for which I provide a draft, and for which I need to contrast opinions. Surely there's room for this particular kind of difficulty in ProZ, last resort for translators. What's the point of ProZ if it can't help us with 'real' translation problems.

I'm sorry but I've been really riled up by this, not especially becuase of my question or the person who undertook to point out the rule to me, but becuase I feel there's a real misunderstanding of what translation problems are about, both among some site users and in the kind of rules that are supposed to govern the site.

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xxxsarahl
Local time: 18:43
English to French
+ ...
Editing vs translating May 22, 2005

In the past few weeks, I have seen a number of askers -at least in my main pairs- post longer "questions" that really needed editing, not translation per se. Hence the length of the question.

What should we do about such queries? Create a separate kudoz section? Specify "editing" at the time the question is posted?
I am not sure at this point.

The fact remains that editing, while definitely part of the translation process, is not really translating.

Do those questions belong in kudoz? Hard to answer this one.
I still think that's the real issue here.

FWIW

Sarah

[Edited at 2005-05-23 03:07]


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