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Proposed changes to the mode where answerers decide the term to accept ("first validated answer")
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 08:29
SITE FOUNDER
Jan 22

Hi all,

Over the course of testing the new KudoZ interface, some ideas have occurred to me for improvements. I want to run one by you all.

When a person asks a question, they get to choose one of two ways for the "winning" answer to be decided. Either (1) they will choose the answer that they find most helpful, or (2) they will leave it to the community, by opting to accept the first answer validated by peers (in the form of two net agrees).

The FVA ("first
... See more
Hi all,

Over the course of testing the new KudoZ interface, some ideas have occurred to me for improvements. I want to run one by you all.

When a person asks a question, they get to choose one of two ways for the "winning" answer to be decided. Either (1) they will choose the answer that they find most helpful, or (2) they will leave it to the community, by opting to accept the first answer validated by peers (in the form of two net agrees).

The FVA ("first validated answer") option has been around for a long time, this is not a new concept. (I forgot exactly when it was released, but it has been around for at least ten years.)

FVA is not used that much, but it is an important option for us to have available, because some askers tell us that they simply do not feel qualified to select a best answer. FVA gives them a way to let everyone know, from the beginning, that they are not going to be making the decision on which answer is most helpful.

Now here is the proposal. I'm thinking of two changes.

* First, currently, FVA questions are always "not for points". I'm thinking it would be better to allow points to be awarded. In other words, it would be at the asker's discretion, just as it is for non-FVA question.

* Second, in the event that no answer gets two net agrees, I would like to allow the asker to agree with an answer (to help put it over the top)

* Third, if no answer has received two net agrees within, say, 48 hours, I think we should do something else to get it closed. I am open to ideas.

See my recent FVA question as an example (at the time of this posting it is still open): https://www.proz.com/kudoz/english-to-russian/computers-software/6756661-single-page-application-spa.html
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:29
Member (2008)
Italian to English
One thing that seems to be missing Jan 22

One thing that seems to be missing (so far) is the "call to this question" option that enables you to flag it up to one of the moderators. Or am I just unable to find it?

 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:29
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
I don't see the point of Option 2 Jan 22

Henry Dotterer wrote:

* Second, in the event that no answer gets two net agrees, I would like to allow the asker to agree with an answer (to help put it over the top)

If the asker is willing to / able to agree with one of the answers, he/she might as well choose it as the most helpful, and close the question. I don't see the merit of this option.


Tina Vonhof
ahartje
Germaine
 

Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 08:29
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Allow the asker to reset the question type from FVA to "normal" Jan 22

Henry Dotterer wrote:

* Second, in the event that no answer gets two net agrees, I would like to allow the asker to agree with an answer (to help put it over the top)

* Third, if no answer has received two net agrees within, say, 48 hours, I think we should do something else to get it closed. I am open to ideas.


In these cases, first step would be to notify the asker of the situation, and allow him/her to go back to the question, change the question back to the regular (non FVA) format, and actively select an answer to close the question.
If the asker is non-responsive, and if the ultimate goal is to get the question closed***, then you may consider a setup where the system closes the question without grading (perhaps with a new type of closing comment, such as "Asker abandoned the question" or "Closed by the system").

***This sort of begs the question: is there a reason why it is important to close questions? Because there is another side to this: AFAIK, askers who abandon questions will be eventually penalized by the asking limits that look for open questions. (There are users who are notorious about not closing questions for a long time.) If the system closes the questions for them, there is no incentive for them to be active after the question was posted, as their asking ability would not be affected if they just abandon questions. Something to think about?


Tina Vonhof
Yolanda Broad
MollyRose
Dr. Matthias Schauen
Laura Kingdon
 

Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:29
Member (2008)
Italian to English
My experience Jan 22

On the (rare) occasions when I ask a question I'm in the middle of a translation and I'm not only looking for the most accurate answer; I'm also in a hurry. It usually takes only a few minutes, or maybe half an hour, before someone comes up with (bingo!) the very word I was looking for. I put it into my translation and carry on with my work.

I usually don't remember about giving points or closing the question (I said I was busy, ok?) until a few days later, when I've forgotten all
... See more
On the (rare) occasions when I ask a question I'm in the middle of a translation and I'm not only looking for the most accurate answer; I'm also in a hurry. It usually takes only a few minutes, or maybe half an hour, before someone comes up with (bingo!) the very word I was looking for. I put it into my translation and carry on with my work.

I usually don't remember about giving points or closing the question (I said I was busy, ok?) until a few days later, when I've forgotten all about it, I get an email telling me to do those things. This is bothersome. Why can't it be done **automatically, at the same time as when I choose the best answer**?
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Tina Vonhof
Yolanda Broad
Leighton Jacobs
Laura Kingdon
 

B D Finch  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 14:29
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
Leave it a bit longer and don't pressure the asker to choose Jan 22

Henry Dotterer wrote:

* First, currently, FVA questions are always "not for points". I'm thinking it would be better to allow points to be awarded. In other words, it would be at the asker's discretion, just as it is for non-FVA question.

* Second, in the event that no answer gets two net agrees, I would like to allow the asker to agree with an answer (to help put it over the top)

* Third, if no answer has received two net agrees within, say, 48 hours, I think we should do something else to get it closed. I am open to ideas.

See my recent FVA question as an example (at the time of this posting it is still open): https://www.proz.com/kudoz/english-to-russian/computers-software/6756661-single-page-application-spa.html



2. Sometimes, no answer gets two net agrees because no adequate/correct answer has been submitted. It seems silly to push the asker to choose an answer if they don't feel competent to do so and/or if there is no adequate answer to choose.

3. 48 hours is too short a time limit for closing questions. Sometimes it can take longer than that for a correct or useful answer to be provided. This is especially the case with technical questions, where the person(s) best qualified to answer might be away or busy when the question is posted. We already have a problem with wrong answers being chosen and this would simply make that worse. Even if the right/best answer comes too late to help the asker, it will still help subsequent KOG users.

[Edited at 2020-01-22 15:42 GMT]


Yolanda Broad
MollyRose
Philip Lees
Dr. Matthias Schauen
Silke Walter
 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 08:29
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Good idea, Katalin! Jan 22

Katalin Horváth McClure wrote:
Allow the asker to reset the question type from FVA to "normal"

Of course, this makes more sense. Thank you, Katalin!


 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 08:29
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Any objection to making them for-points? Jan 22

If there are no objections we'll just do it...

 

MollyRose  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:29
Member (2010)
English to Spanish
+ ...
not for points Jan 22

If points are automatically assigned by the program rather than a human, they could be given erroneously. There have been times when several people agreed to an answer, but another answer (with or without agrees) was the best one for the context. I think it would be better to leave the first validated answers without points, especially if they only require two agrees. As somebody already mentioned, sometimes better answers are given later, after others have been entered and agreed upon.

Dr. Matthias Schauen
Katalin Horváth McClure
Yvonne Gallagher
 

Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:29
Serbian to English
+ ...
In personal glossaries, add links to the related questions Jan 23

When a term is added to KOG you get included a link to the question from which the entry is derived.

When you add a term to your personal glossary - nothing- zilch - nada.

all anyone can see is a term in two languages - nothing more, no link to the question from which it's derived.

So you can't see the context in which the term was used, what are the explanations / references that underpin the logic of selecting that translation, what alternatives were
... See more
When a term is added to KOG you get included a link to the question from which the entry is derived.

When you add a term to your personal glossary - nothing- zilch - nada.

all anyone can see is a term in two languages - nothing more, no link to the question from which it's derived.

So you can't see the context in which the term was used, what are the explanations / references that underpin the logic of selecting that translation, what alternatives were proposed - nothing. Just the worst possible variant of a glossary - a translation without any context, nor explanation ....
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MollyRose
 

Philip Lees  Identity Verified
Greece
Local time: 15:29
Member (2008)
Greek to English
No point Jan 23

Henry Dotterer wrote:
Any objection to making them for-points?

If there are no objections we'll just do it...


I've never seen the point of "not for points" questions. When I see the phrase "no-points question" a little voice in my head responds "no-answer question" (I sometimes still answer anyway).

Not that I particularly care about KudoZ points, but why would anybody choose not to give a token "thank you" to somebody who's helped them?

You could dump the entire "no points" thing altogether as far as I'm concerned.


Christine Andersen
Chris S
Daryo
 

Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 21:29
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
Off-topic, but... Jan 23

People have been asking for the ability to vote non-pro/pro at any time; i.e. if someone else votes a question as non-pro, you should be able to vote pro there and then to offset it (basically the same system used to score agrees/disagrees).

If you are thinking about making any changes to Kudoz, it's high time you did something about this.


Yolanda Broad
 

Dr. Matthias Schauen  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:29
Member (2007)
English to German
Stay with not-for-points, do not close prematurely Jan 23

* First: Since not-for-points questions give less incentive for the answerer, making FVA questions not for points is an incentive for the asker to think whether they really consider themselves not qualified to decide which answer is the most helpful so that they have to use the less attractive FVA format. And I like that, because I really do not see how and why an asker would not consider themselves able to decide this, be it based on their own expertise and knowledge of the context or on... See more
* First: Since not-for-points questions give less incentive for the answerer, making FVA questions not for points is an incentive for the asker to think whether they really consider themselves not qualified to decide which answer is the most helpful so that they have to use the less attractive FVA format. And I like that, because I really do not see how and why an asker would not consider themselves able to decide this, be it based on their own expertise and knowledge of the context or on the agrees and disagrees (and on who agrees and disagrees) on the forum. I think that often it's rather unwillingness to do the extra work of making a few more clicks in exchange for the help received on the forum. Plus, I think it is dangerous to automate the awarding of points in any way.

* Second: I like Katalin's idea.

* Third: I see no need to close questions before they are answered in a helpful way.

[Edited at 2020-01-23 10:19 GMT]
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MollyRose
Yvonne Gallagher
 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 08:29
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Lincoln: This is what we are trying re: pro/non-pro Jan 23

Lincoln Hui wrote:

People have been asking for the ability to vote non-pro/pro at any time; i.e. if someone else votes a question as non-pro, you should be able to vote pro there and then to offset it (basically the same system used to score agrees/disagrees).

If you are thinking about making any changes to Kudoz, it's high time you did something about this.

Thanks. We are making some adjustments in the area of PRO/Non-PRO. This feature came out of an era when random people would arrive at ProZ.com and ask how to say "I love you" in Czech, or whatever. Some people say that this as an annoyance or an embarrassment, and thus there was a desire to be able to identify such questions so that those annoyed by them wouldn't have to see them.

In practice, categorization has gone differently. So we are renaming the categories as "Standard/pro" and "Beginner/non-pro". We are embedding the option to mark non-pro into the preview stage of asking, and marking something as "Beginner/non-pro" will be something that moderators (and maybe others?) can just do, without a need for voting.

We'll see how this goes.


 

Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:29
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Non-pro Jan 23

In the new Kudoz thing I can't find the option to reclassify the question as PRO / non-PRO. Where is it?

 
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