| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | would non-natives answering KudoZ Qs practice a little introspection please? Thread poster: Lia Fail (X)
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Erika Pavelka (X) 
Local time: 19:18
French to English
I totally understand where you're coming from. My take on it is that these translators probably don't realize that their English is abysmal. They must think that it's very good or even excellent.
I think it's best to just ignore those people. If the asker chooses the wrong answer, that's too bad for them.
| | | | Joost Elshoff (X)
Local time: 01:18
Spanish to Dutch
+ ...
| Non-natives is a very big group | Oct 5, 2006 |
I might be a bit naive in this, but as a novice translator I don't think I wouldn't try answering any KudoZ questions beyond my capabilities.
I think it's a question of judgement, would you feel comfortable answering a question in a field you don't work or specialize in? Would you trust a native speaker of any language without knowledge of a specific field to answer your question, when a field specialist that doesn't speak that language as native could give you the right answer?... See more I might be a bit naive in this, but as a novice translator I don't think I wouldn't try answering any KudoZ questions beyond my capabilities.
I think it's a question of judgement, would you feel comfortable answering a question in a field you don't work or specialize in? Would you trust a native speaker of any language without knowledge of a specific field to answer your question, when a field specialist that doesn't speak that language as native could give you the right answer?
The entire native vs. non-native discussion takes on more than just this answering of KudoZ questions.
And sure, an asker might be able to direct a question to a preferred language pair or specialism, but anyone else would still be able to suggest other solutions. There can't be a fail safe built into the system, because that way the entire system loses what is most important (to me at least): finding sparring partners for solutions to translation problems...
As many others already said: there is no rule stating that the asker should use the best of given solutions. Find the best, award the best. The rest will be either accepted or rejected by the community.
And if you don't want to rely on the community, think twice before posting your question in KudoZ, it might be easier to consult the web or a dictionary. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L.
India
Local time: 04:48
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER | May not be very wise to do this... | Oct 5, 2006 |
... that is, restrict kudoz to just natives, especially in languages like English in which non-natives with fairly good command over the language perhaps exceed the natives in numbers.
One will miss out on a lot of local flavour, and even get things wrong, if say we were to allow only those native to UK (the copyright holding nation of English) to answer questions asked in English monolingual.
English is spoken in such diverse corners of the world, from New York to New ... See more ... that is, restrict kudoz to just natives, especially in languages like English in which non-natives with fairly good command over the language perhaps exceed the natives in numbers.
One will miss out on a lot of local flavour, and even get things wrong, if say we were to allow only those native to UK (the copyright holding nation of English) to answer questions asked in English monolingual.
English is spoken in such diverse corners of the world, from New York to New Delhi and London to Ludhiana, that a person sitting in UK, however native he/she may be of English, will not be able to catch all the myraid ways in which this language is used in both written and spoken form.
It is best to let everyone who claims to have expertise in any language to express himself/herself in whatever way he/she can and let the peer group sift the chaff from the grain.
That is the way of science, and it should work with languages too. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 19:18
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Enter "disagree" when appropriate, but don't get too upset about it | Oct 5, 2006 |
Erika wrote:
I think it's best to just ignore those people. If the asker chooses the wrong answer, that's too bad for them.
*
I partially agree with this, in the sense that it certainly isn't worth getting too upset about such people. On the other hand, I do think it appropriate to enter "disagrees" for obviously wrong answers, especially in the following cases:
1. faulty grammar or syntax
2. Confidence Level of 5
3. Sloppy refe... See more Erika wrote:
I think it's best to just ignore those people. If the asker chooses the wrong answer, that's too bad for them.
*
I partially agree with this, in the sense that it certainly isn't worth getting too upset about such people. On the other hand, I do think it appropriate to enter "disagrees" for obviously wrong answers, especially in the following cases:
1. faulty grammar or syntax
2. Confidence Level of 5
3. Sloppy references (e.g., citing poorly translated Albanian websites as references for terms)
4. Having one or more supporting "agrees".
Bob ▲ Collapse
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Mats Wiman
Sweden
Local time: 01:18
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
In memoriam | Maybe I am right | Oct 5, 2006 |
Kirill Semenov wrote: Mats Wiman wrote:
The brilliant idea behind KudoZ is to let members and users provide suggestions.
In order to help the asker you can pass judgement on an answer but that is all you should pass judgement on - period.
What is left is to be kept to yourself - period.
My definition of appropriate web behaviour. Thank you for opening our blind eyes, dear Mats! Yet another great excuse to do nothing when something wrong is happening...
After endless fights for freedom of answering during six years I might just have arrived at what I see as a Golden Rule:
Never comment on your fellow participants, above all, do not bring them into derision, do not speak of them individually or as a group with contempt or as being inferior, not professional, not native enough, not knowledgeable enough etc.
This one should not do because:
1. You very often do not know the person good enough to pass judgement.
2. It creates an unfriendly atmosphere when persons are attacked or derided.
3. It leads away from what we should focus on:
a) Help each other (KudoZ)
b) Educate each other ( " )
c) Educate ourselves ( " )
d) Have interesting exchanges of ideas, thoughts, feelings and information (Forums)
This effort of mutual interest should not be smeared by derision (as above), dirt throwing, defamation, exclusion etc.
That is what I meant with "What is left is to be kept to yourself!", which is a variation of another comment I made about this "Mind your own business!" If everybody did just that , we would have a much friendlier atmosphere in our encounters, be it KudoZ or Forums.
My harsh tone (" - period") was not directed at anyone, it was directed at a phenmenon which saddens many members:
The loss of focus on the point at issue.
[Edited at 2006-10-05 17:42]
| | | | Malik Beytek (X)
Local time: 02:18
| 1) In answering, help the asker 2)In asking, think twice before you do that | Oct 5, 2006 |
Those two rules will be my guidelines, till I come up with better ones. Of course I didn't invent them; I picked them up from these forums.
In setting CL, again, the guideline will be to help the asker (although I'm mulling the idea of fixing my CL, say, at 1, (or 5, it doesn't matter) for all answers, or the idea of proposing that it should not be mandatory to tick a CL).
And you're right, Mats Viman, I have found that you extract maximum utility from the exercise o... See more Those two rules will be my guidelines, till I come up with better ones. Of course I didn't invent them; I picked them up from these forums.
In setting CL, again, the guideline will be to help the asker (although I'm mulling the idea of fixing my CL, say, at 1, (or 5, it doesn't matter) for all answers, or the idea of proposing that it should not be mandatory to tick a CL).
And you're right, Mats Viman, I have found that you extract maximum utility from the exercise of answering only when you focus on helping the user. Only then, you too learn.
Don't go for Kudoz (spell?).
If your are not going to learn in process of asking a helper, don't bother, it won't be worth your while.
Don't even concern yourself with altruistic reasons to answer -- it would be an exceptional case where you only could help the asker and that, when it occurs, should be obvious.
[Edited at 2006-10-05 18:23] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 19:18
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Be kind to others, but keep in mind the purpose of Kudoz | Oct 5, 2006 |
Mats wrote:
This one should not do because:
1. You very often do not know the person good enough to pass judgement.
2. It creates an unfriendly atmosphere when persons are attacked or derided.
3. It leads away from what we should focus on:
a) Help each other (KudoZ)
b) Educate each other ( " )
c) Educate ourselves ( " )
d) Have interesting exchanges of ideas, thoughts, feelings and information (Forums)
Fair enough, but part of e... See more Mats wrote:
This one should not do because:
1. You very often do not know the person good enough to pass judgement.
2. It creates an unfriendly atmosphere when persons are attacked or derided.
3. It leads away from what we should focus on:
a) Help each other (KudoZ)
b) Educate each other ( " )
c) Educate ourselves ( " )
d) Have interesting exchanges of ideas, thoughts, feelings and information (Forums)
Fair enough, but part of educating others and ourselves is letting answerers and askers know when they are way off base.
Therefore, our communications with one another will often have to go a bit beyond smiley faces and wishing each other well.
Bob ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Am I missing something here …? | Oct 5, 2006 |
... and if so, what is it (genuine question)?
As I understand it, the original poster was irritated (actually, was beyond irritated, was ‘infuriated’) because (i) he/she had answered a question and (ii) someone else had answered the same question and the other person’s answer was – let’s say – sub-optimal.
I don’t know for certain what this question was, and therefore I don’t know for certain which answers were given. But there was enough evidence in th... See more ... and if so, what is it (genuine question)?
As I understand it, the original poster was irritated (actually, was beyond irritated, was ‘infuriated’) because (i) he/she had answered a question and (ii) someone else had answered the same question and the other person’s answer was – let’s say – sub-optimal.
I don’t know for certain what this question was, and therefore I don’t know for certain which answers were given. But there was enough evidence in the original post to lead anyone who was interested to narrow down the possibilities to a very, very small number.
Someone else in this thread has made a direct assumption about which answer the original poster was referring to. I concur (I might, of course, be wrong) with that assumption.
Now … the answer that infuriated the original poster (always allowing the correctness of the assumption about which answer it is) was not a great one. In fact, it was pretty poor. It wasn’t a calamity. And it wasn’t Martian. It was simply a poor rendering of the term in the asker’s question. But the answerer made an effort, and the effort seems to have been a genuine attempt to be helpful.
I’ve been a ‘user’ of ProZ for a few years and in that time I have asked exactly six questions. Some of the answers I got to those questions were obviously incorrect. In awarding points and thanking answerers, I think there was one occasion (from six occasions) when I forgot to thank all the answerers for taking the time to try to help me.
If I were the busiest person in the known universe, it might (just about conceivably) be understandable that I would get irritated at the prospect of having to review obviously incorrect answers before deciding which answer was the correct one.
I am not, in reality, among the busiest people in the known universe. But for those ProZ ‘users’ who are, perhaps it would be prudent if ProZ could obviate the peril of irritation by deploying some software to ensure that only people with the correct answer can suggest answers.
So the potential irritation of askers is conceivable. Whence, though, the irritation (indeed, the infuriation) of answerers? Where does it originate? What is its purpose? How does the infuriation help? Importantly, what causes it? You might lose the points? Is that it? The Sacred Temple of the Glossaries might be defiled? Is that it? What, actually, is it?
Someone else in this thread (Thomas, I think) made the truly excellent suggestion of having a cup of tea. I always look forward to ProZ’s software innovations, but having a cup of tea is – always and indisputably – the best suggestion in the known universe.
Good luck to all posters. May we yet elevate the rates.
JB ▲ Collapse
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Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 01:18
Italian to English
In memoriam | I'm with Mats on this one, Bob | Oct 5, 2006 |
Robert Forstag wrote:
Fair enough, but part of educating others and ourselves is letting answerers and askers know when they are way off base.
Bob
Hi Bob,
I can see your point but Mats is right.
We're going to get more out of Kudoz if we can be non-judgemental about other answerers, however debatable their apparent professional skills, knowledge of the languages concerned or state of sobriety, and restrict ourselves to objecting, firmly but politely, when we are certain that *the answer* is off base.
After all, even the most excruciatingly incompetent answerers have a life ahead of them - and, with any luck, enough time for Kudoz to help them become better translators - but a bad answer is a bad answer.
Period (to quote a well-known Swedish authority on the subject).
Yours constructively,
Giles
[Edited at 2006-10-05 19:52]
| | | | | Can we get a grip … | Oct 5, 2006 |
... because I think that the language, in this thread about language and who should use it, might be a tad ‘off base’ and perhaps ‘far out’?
Someone has suggested here that the behaviour of an individual in the Spanish-English pair is implicitly ‘grotesque’ and explicitly ‘more grotesque still’. I don’t know who that individual is and I don’t care.
If you’re sitting on a bus and a stranger approaches you and spits in your mouth, that’s grotesqu... See more ... because I think that the language, in this thread about language and who should use it, might be a tad ‘off base’ and perhaps ‘far out’?
Someone has suggested here that the behaviour of an individual in the Spanish-English pair is implicitly ‘grotesque’ and explicitly ‘more grotesque still’. I don’t know who that individual is and I don’t care.
If you’re sitting on a bus and a stranger approaches you and spits in your mouth, that’s grotesque. Someone who consistently posts poor answers on a translators’ website, or who charges above-average rates for his/her services is not – by any stretch of the imagination – ‘grotesque’.
All best to all,
JB ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 19:18
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Giles, we are of the same mind | Oct 5, 2006 |
I agree with everything you've said, Giles. I never meant to imply tossing off "disagrees" left and right merely because an answer falls short of perfection. Remember: the general context of this conversation was "obviously wrong answers".
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 16:18
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Why should we care? | Oct 5, 2006 |
Jackie Bowman wrote:
Am I missing something here …?
... and if so, what is it (genuine question)?
Seemingly incompetent translators asking KudoZ questions and suggesting answers to KudoZ questions in target languages and in subject areas without the prerequisite knowledge in those languages and subject areas detracts from the professional image of the site.
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| Original poster ... | Oct 5, 2006 |
I’m certain that I’ve never before been in any public discussion in which the originator absented himself or herself for such a long time from the debate that he or she sparked.
So … Mr./Ms./Mrs./Dr./Whatever Fail. Can we have a contribution from you? Please?
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 01:18
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | non-native insights are very important | Oct 5, 2006 |
Sophia Hundt wrote: The one problem I can see with this suggestion is that sometimes, non-natives of the target language happen to know exactly what something means in their native tongue (again, that's for the cases when the problem is understanding the source vs. the best possible translation into the target language). It seems to me it's important that they have the option to indicate that they know something for sure. Parrot wrote:
It just occurred to me: would it make programming sense (considering we already have programmable asker-side restrictions) to make it impossible for a non-native not working in the question's specialist field to assign a confidence level of '5'?
And then, would it make kudoZ sense?
Or would a message "you have not reported yourself a native in this target language" do the trick?
Just a couple of thoughts.
I agree Sophia, in the past I have often appreciated the insights of a non-native, but when I was looking for them, I usually posted in the source language.
In other words, I'm very anti the dictionary word-for-word translation; if one doesn't undertand a concept, one can't even begin to think of the words, so undertstanding meaning is primordial.
What do I do when I encounter gibberish? I try to figure out (via the author or via ProZ) what this apparent gibberish means, and at the very least it will be confirmed as gibberish. But I will NOT reproduce gibberish, within my normal human limits:-)
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 19:18
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Storm in a tea-cup ... because the asker asked the wrong question! | Oct 5, 2006 |
What struck me when I first looked at the question in question, and the four answers that had already appeared, was that the asker was asking the wrong question.
It was clear that the asker - and the first answerer whose efforts brought storm-clouds to this thread - were both having difficulty with a perfectly straightforward word (a 10-letter word, of which 9 letters are the same in both languages), because of the somewhat un... See more What struck me when I first looked at the question in question, and the four answers that had already appeared, was that the asker was asking the wrong question.
It was clear that the asker - and the first answerer whose efforts brought storm-clouds to this thread - were both having difficulty with a perfectly straightforward word (a 10-letter word, of which 9 letters are the same in both languages), because of the somewhat unconventional use of another word in the same sentence. The apparent contradiction in the mood of the sentence was throwing them off-course.
Lia´s answer was a satisfactory one, but she did not pick up on the root cause of the problem, preferring to begin attacking the first answerer right there in Kudoz.
Two peers - one (native English) supporting that first answer, the other (native Spanish) supporting Lia's answer - commented on the unconventional use of the other word, implying that the source text was poorly written if not actually wrong.
Two more answerers then gave valid translations of the question - but they, too, side-stepped the underlying problem.
My own contribution to the question was simply a dictionary reference to the 'rouge' word that was provoking all the problems, pointing out that it was not actually incorrect, mentioning the appropriate English translation and giving a couple of example sentences. As I wasn't answering the question 'as asked', I gave myself a CL of 2 and rewarded myself with a swig of beer.
It will be interesting to see who - if anyone - gets points on this one!
MediaMatrix
[Edited at 2006-10-05 23:04] ▲ Collapse
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