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Starting the KOG clean-up process
Thread poster: Kim Metzger

Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 04:50
German to English
Nov 4, 2006

There have been many proposals for how to go about cleaning up our KudoZ glossary, but it appears the mechanisms are yet to be worked out.

It just struck me that while we're waiting for something concrete to happen, we ought to go ahead and get the process started.

We could set up a database for proposed changes. Whenever a member discovers a wrong answer in the glossary he or she could send it to this database for our future lexicographers to work on.

Sound good?


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JaneTranslates  Identity Verified
Puerto Rico
Local time: 05:50
Member (2005)
Spanish to English
+ ...
Sure! Nov 4, 2006

Go for it! Tell me where to send them and I'll start collecting them.

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Dyran Altenburg  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:50
English to Spanish
+ ...
Nothing sucks like Electrolux Nov 5, 2006

Kim Metzger wrote:
There have been many proposals for how to go about cleaning up our KudoZ glossary, but it appears the mechanisms are yet to be worked out.


I thought cleaning the KOG was already being done.

Isn't that one of the main goals of wikiwords?

--
Dyran


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IwonaASzymaniak  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:50
English to Polish
+ ...
Good with reservations Nov 5, 2006

Kim Metzger wrote:

Whenever a member discovers a wrong answer in the glossary he or she could send it to this database for our future lexicographers to work on.

Sound good?


Yes, it does sound good but it also sounds like a very long clean up process, a sort of never ending story because new glosses will be put to the KOG all the time unless there is a similar mechanism in place for the KOG as we have for the forums.
I am not sure who should decide about the quality and corectness of a gloss entry. Moderators? It would mean putting more work on them.
A special panel for each language pair? It could be elected by peer voting, and there should be different areas of specialization represented in the panel.
Just some thoughts early in the morning.

Iwona


[Edited at 2006-11-05 05:34]

[Edited at 2006-11-05 05:35]


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Lesley Clarke  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 04:50
Spanish to English
Me too Nov 5, 2006

Brilliant idea and not hard to implement.

Congratulations Kim
Lesley


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Siegfried Armbruster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:50
Member (2004)
English to German
+ ...
The sooner the better Nov 5, 2006

Hi Kim,
great that you started this topic. Count me in for my language pairs and my special areas. IMO "Wikiwords" will never fly and we should concentrate on KOG and how we can improve it.

Hope to meet you soon again.

Siggi


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ViktoriaG  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 05:50
English to French
+ ...
A simple solution Nov 5, 2006

Iwona, you ask a valid question. Of course, someone will have to decide if we keep or scrap a given KudoZ answer. But I think this will be easy.

Someone has already suggested to simply spot answers/gloss entries they find are erroneous and notify moderators/staff/whoever of them. I think the entity who needs to be notified is an automatic system set up in the site that will add the entry to a queue. Whoever is interested in fixing the gloss entry will simply look at he queue and vote on the entry. As soon as three people agree that the entry is no good, it gets sent to another queue where it can be fixed. Three people will need to agree on the fix for it to go through and enter the KoG definitely. If three people don't agree on it for a fixed period of time, then it gets scrapped forever. Also, only people who are experts in the subject area of the gloss entry AND their first language pair corresponds to the language pair of the gloss entry will be allowed to vote. If I only have an interest in quantum physics and the gloss entry is about quantum physics, I will not be allowed to vote. If the gloss entry is French to English and that is my second language pair in my profile, I can't vote on that entry.

Also, I would make all of the contributions to this system strictly not-for-points - for obvious reasons.

Yeah, it is possible my solution will not be perfect, but then again, lots of bad stuff would still be filtered out, and anyways, there is no perfect method - is there?

And it is high time we stop talking and stard doing. As is the case for many more topics on this site, sadly...


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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:50
Member (2004)
English to Italian
I'm glad... Nov 5, 2006

you have enough free time to do this. Thanks for the effort. Having said that, if you are a professional, you should be able to tell the difference between a good and a bad answer when using the KOG... so, it's a bit of a waste of time, isn't it?

Giovanni


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ViktoriaG  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 05:50
English to French
+ ...
If you are a professional translator, your text doesn't need proofreading, right? Nov 5, 2006

Giovanni, I think that if we ever want to get anywhere with cleaning up the KoG, we will have to do it right from the beginning. As you probably know, many of the bad entries were made by professionals. So, the theory about being a professional and knowing what one is doing doesn't really apply here...

I don't have the time (I also have my hands full with work), but if you and I have a couple of minutes to pass by and say hello, we would both probably have 30 seconds once in a blue moon to give to this project. Now, multiply that by let's say 10,000 users. It could make a difference.

Finally, if people are proposing to fix it, it's probably because some people are fond enough of the KoG to want to dedicate a little of their time to it. KudoZ is based on the same idea, as well as the forum.

Get back to work now, or you'll miss your deadline

[Edited at 2006-11-05 10:36]


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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:50
Member (2004)
English to Italian
If you are a professional translator, your text doesn't need proofreading, right? Nov 5, 2006

They are two completely different things, Viktoria. Anyway, bad entries are not made by professionals. Professionals who make these mistakes, are not 'professionals'. As simple as that.


but if you and I have a couple of minutes to pass by and say hello, we would both probably have 30 seconds once in a blue moon to give to this project. Now, multiply that by let's say 10,000 users. It could make a difference.


Sorry to be frank, but this is cuckoo land... 10,000 users working on it? And who guarantees they are going to do a good job? The task is immense and the variables too may. We are kidding ourselves.

G


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xxxmediamatrix
Local time: 06:50
Spanish to English
+ ...
On WikiWords ... Nov 5, 2006

Dyran Altenburg wrote:


I thought cleaning the KOG was already being done.

Isn't that one of the main goals of wikiwords?

--
Dyran


One of the main problems affecting WikiWords since it was launched last April has been the decision to kick-start it with the bulk import thousands of unfiltered, unverified, unstructured and often meaningless KOG entries.

Since then, rather than 'cleaning up' that KOG source material, many WikiWords users have merely added to the confusion either by extending it to additional languages or by merging content haphazardly (for example, by merging noun concepts with adjective concepts, or without adequately checking for homonyms).

The result is that the majority of WikiWords content, today, is a worse mess than the KOG could ever hope to achieve.

Furthermore, experience with WikiWords shows that the system simply does not include the tools necessary for an effective and efficient clean-up.

Regardless of whether it was Henry's intention to use WikiWords as a repair-shop for KOG (and I vaguely recall having read somewhere a statement by Henry to the effect that that was not the intention...), the fact is that, today, the KOG problem has contaminated WikiWords to the point that euthanasia of one or the other is called for - if only to prevent the further spread of the disease.

MediaMatrix


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Valentin Alupoaie  Identity Verified
Romania
Local time: 12:50
English to Romanian
+ ...
What about the multiple identical entries? Nov 5, 2006

I'm straying a bit, as I'm not commenting on the quality, but this is about KOG cleaning nonetheless. How about beginning by getting rid of the identical entries? Don't you find them at all bothersome? There must be thousands and thousands, probably entered n times so as to earn a few extra BrowniZ. The site staff could do a cleanup, by eliminating the rows that have identical entries in all fields (including author). It souldn't be that hard, right?

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NancyLynn
Canada
Local time: 05:50
Member (2002)
French to English
+ ...

MODERATOR
Agree, Valentin Nov 5, 2006

Definitely, while bouncing around the arguments and opinions regarding the quality of entries, we can certainly delete all the extra bagage... In my pairs, in some subject areas, there are up to 7 identical entries. I've often thought it would be like a breath of fresh air to clean that up!

I agree with you, too, Kim. I know how important quality is to you. But I tend to disagree with Viktoria regarding the 30 sec x 10,000 users equation... we just don't have that kind of math. As you say, there are many other site projects on the go that haven't reached fruition, and that is because of time constraints, which we all face.

Anyhow, as you say, the deadline is looming and the kiddies are gone to the arena... so bye for now! Have fun everyone!

Nancy


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ViktoriaG  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 05:50
English to French
+ ...
10,000 users x 30 seconds ONCE IN A BLUE MOON Nov 6, 2006

I was not saying 10,000 x 30 seconds every day. I mean, I was not saying that all those users would dedicate themselves to this. I was rather suggesting they all do what we already do to convert the text into Unicode when we get results from the KoG. I always click on a few when I search there and it only takes me seconds - an sometimes I even try to correct the ones that display wrong, although there's not many of those in my language pairs. I am already scanning through the list of results, might as well click the ones that display correctly. The same thing could be done with the KoG.

When we get duplicates, we could also just click them to send them to a list of candidates for deletion, to be confirmed by three users with one click of a mouse.

If Unicode conversion was implemented, then we could copy that idea for KoG correction. Why not?


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Denyce Seow  Identity Verified
Singapore
Local time: 17:50
Member (2004)
Chinese to English
Chinese KOG Nov 6, 2006

Hi Kim,

I think this is a good idea. I'm glad there are people out there who see value in the KOG and are willing to put in effort and time to make it better.

Not too long ago, I started a thread in the Chinese forum on a similar topic (http://www.proz.com/topic/58086). I saw that people in my community don't really know much about KOG and, sad to say, don't really care much either. We get many entries like "fyi", "suggestion", "try", etc. Beside starting this forum topic, I also wrote colleagues to remind them to enter their terms into the glossary when I saw that they did not "gloss" their answers. I must say that the situation is a little better now...

The next step for us is to "clean up" the Chinese KOG. We have to get rid of tons of entries with "fyi", "suggestion", "try", etc., rectify encoding problems, ensure the correct fields are indicated, and so on... Will be quite some work, but I am sure when this is done, we will have a great KOG. (Some of you will call me naive, but hey... if no one takes the first step, nothing will ever be done.)

Kim, let's do this! Let me know if you need my help in any way.

Denyce

[Edited at 2006-11-06 09:56]


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