| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Disagrees in KudoZ and political correctness Thread poster: AllegroTrans
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Irene N
United States
Local time: 07:51
English to Russian
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| Some big heads:-) | Jul 15, 2007 |
To participate in an international discussion, to offer your opinion to the rest of the world and expect nothing but agree... Wow! How do some people hanlde an in-room discussion? Shoot the opponents?:-) Call them names in their faces? Be it known that people are entitled to different opinions and those flatly opposing it should stay behind closed doors, IMHO.
I'm afraid that trouble with disagree is rooted not to the political correctness, but to the lack of communication skills, ... See more To participate in an international discussion, to offer your opinion to the rest of the world and expect nothing but agree... Wow! How do some people hanlde an in-room discussion? Shoot the opponents?:-) Call them names in their faces? Be it known that people are entitled to different opinions and those flatly opposing it should stay behind closed doors, IMHO.
I'm afraid that trouble with disagree is rooted not to the political correctness, but to the lack of communication skills, point-hunting and childish egotism, maybe even to poor manners. Like people have never gone to any school thus have never defended a thesis in front of an audience... Guess what, friends... People tend to discuss and dissect things as volatile as translation. They better do, for the sake of translation, not those stupid points...
What do I do? Sometimes give disagrees, sometimes say Thank you for a disagree to my answer, sometimes give agrees on the same pages where my answer is when I believe that it is better or equally good and the asker should pay more attention to the particular context before choosing. This is because I am a good girl:-) - all I care about is correct translation, not a candy from a jar.
Cheers,
Irene ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 06:51
Dutch to English
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writeaway wrote:
Answers are often NOT 100% wrong-but one can express reservations, giving the answerer a chance to explain. A neutral is used for this. Removing the 'neutral' option would be a big mistake imho. I've often given neutrals and answerers have responded explaining the parts I questioned and I then changed my neutral to agree.
A disagree means "I am 100% certain that your answer is 100% wrong". So it has to be used carefully-not just handed out casually or to discredit an answer in the eyes of Asker or for some other non-linguistic reason. And before hitting someone with a disagree, it's important that one has one's facts 100% straight from genuine pro knowledge of the field and not just based on dico definitions. A disagree that is erroneous or unfair precludes any such dialogue since the person posting it is stating absolute certainty, making discussion usually pointless as those posting such 'freely given' disagrees are often unable to justify their reason(s). However an informed disagree is actually very helpful as part of the learning process.
I agree with this and your earlier comments 100%. I have a simple rule for myself: I don't give a neutral or disagree unless I have given an agree to another answer or post what I think is a better answer myself, and I always try to give a reasoned explanation. Basing a disagree on dico definitions is not helpful because we all know that you still have to pick and choose what is best in the particular context.
| | | | | The problem with "disagree" | Jul 15, 2007 |
The problem with "disagree" is that too many people seem to read this as "This is a ridiculous answer made by a bad person who is ignorant and/or stupid".
Perhaps the problem could be ameliorated by adding a few more possible answers:
1) agree
2) neutral-neutral (= I neither agree nor disagree, and the reason of my position is [add comment])
3) neutral-differ (= I think that there is a better answer, that is [add comment], but the answer provided is not act... See more The problem with "disagree" is that too many people seem to read this as "This is a ridiculous answer made by a bad person who is ignorant and/or stupid".
Perhaps the problem could be ameliorated by adding a few more possible answers:
1) agree
2) neutral-neutral (= I neither agree nor disagree, and the reason of my position is [add comment])
3) neutral-differ (= I think that there is a better answer, that is [add comment], but the answer provided is not actually wrong)
4) neutral-PC (= I actually think that the answer provided is wrong, but I don't want to ruffle feathers)
5) respectfully disagree (= I think that the answer provided is wrong, because [add comment], but please, don't take this as a personal attack).
6) This is a ridiculous answer made by a bad person who is ignorant and/or stupid
At that point we could all avoid the use of option number 6, and use any of the other options as appropriate. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Anik Aminuddin 
United States
Local time: 08:51
English to Indonesian
+ ...
| 100% agree with Jane | Jul 15, 2007 |
Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, that's why there are agree, disagree and neutral options. However, I would avoid like the plaque, disagreeing with another Kudoz answerer while submitting my own answer, since I would come across as arrogant even if I'm not.
JaneTranslates wrote:
Here's what I try to do:
The answer is basically right but has a misspelled word or a minor syntax error? I give an "Agree" with a correction.
The answer might be correct, but I see a different way of interpreting the context? I give a "Neutral" with a comment.
The answer is wrong, and I am submitting another answer? I explain my own answer in my own space but make no comment on the wrong answer.
The answer is wrong, and I am not submitting another answer (because I don't know, or because someone else already did)? I use "Disagree" with an explanation.
I try to word it gently, because that bright red disagree is a little shocking sometimes, but I assume we're all adults, professionals, and acting in good faith, to help the asker and each other.
[Edited at 2007-07-15 19:53]
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Anne Goff
United States
Local time: 05:51
French to English
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| "Neutral" and etc. | Jul 15, 2007 |
I like the neutral option, and think that it should be kept. There have been times when I have made comments on answers and these comments were definitely not to agree or disagree.
Also, I do not believe that just because you answer you should not be able to comment on other answers. What if someone posts an excellent answer after you have already posted yours? Why shouldn't you be able to agree with them? Though I do agree that it is generally in bad form to disagree when you have ... See more I like the neutral option, and think that it should be kept. There have been times when I have made comments on answers and these comments were definitely not to agree or disagree.
Also, I do not believe that just because you answer you should not be able to comment on other answers. What if someone posts an excellent answer after you have already posted yours? Why shouldn't you be able to agree with them? Though I do agree that it is generally in bad form to disagree when you have posted your own answer.
One or two people have commented that the bright red disagree is a bit shocking. They're absolutely right, especially when 99% of ProZ.com is in such neutral colors (as is currently being discussed in another thread).
Would it seem to be bending to the rules of political correctness if we ditched the colors and just went with simple black check marks for agree and X's for disagree? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Anik Aminuddin
United States
Local time: 08:51
English to Indonesian
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| 100% agree with Jane | Jul 15, 2007 |
double posting
[Edited at 2007-07-16 02:14]
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 08:51
Spanish to English
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| In defense of robust debate... | Jul 16, 2007 |
Amy Duncan wrote:
I post an answer that I'm sure is correct, and there are other answers that I'm sure are wrong, I feel funny about putting "disagree" or even "neutral" to those answers, because it gives the impression that I am too eager to get points for myself and it also seems a little arrogant. I find it is much less combative to write something in my own box suggesting why the other answers might not be correct, rather than pouncing on them in their own boxes with a "disagree" or a "neutral."
However, if there is a rule about this (I wasn't aware of it...yes, I should read the rules more carefully), then I guess I'll just have to go with the pouncing method. Does anybody see what I'm getting at here?
Amy [/quote]
I agree with Amy on this. In fact, I think it unnatural not to comment on the quality of previous answers when one is offering the fourth or fifth alternative to the asker. This is information that should help the asker make up his or her mind as to which answer is correct.
I also agree with Amy that doing this sort of thing is far less combative--and less time consuming--than posting an answer and then blasting two or three rivals with disagrees accompanied by explanations.
I would further say that I really don't have the time to provide detailed explanations of why a particular answer does not work in linguistic terms, and I therefore will sometimes write something like, "no native speaker would say this" or "stilted". This really ought to be acceptable commentary, at least on the part of someone who has proven himself or herself by the quality of previous contributions in a particular language pair.
| | | | Patrice
United States
Local time: 05:51
Member
French to English
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| Further to Robert's last paragraph..Yes! | Jul 16, 2007 |
I absolutely agree. I also believe (and this might verge on sounding severe, but the way I understand it, this is a professional translation site) that if a responder does not know that the answer provided is not what a native English speaker (speaking here for target language English questions) would say, I really think they are not in a position to provide a suggested response for professional translators. Let people learn from disagrees, or as has been suggested, let them vigorously defend th... See more I absolutely agree. I also believe (and this might verge on sounding severe, but the way I understand it, this is a professional translation site) that if a responder does not know that the answer provided is not what a native English speaker (speaking here for target language English questions) would say, I really think they are not in a position to provide a suggested response for professional translators. Let people learn from disagrees, or as has been suggested, let them vigorously defend their answers. ▲ Collapse
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Irene N
United States
Local time: 07:51
English to Russian
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Patricia Struyk wrote:
Let people learn from disagrees
My understanding of the purpose of disagree always was "let US learn from disagrees".
Kinda proves my point...
| | | | Margreet Logmans (X)
Netherlands
Local time: 14:51
English to Dutch
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| Disagree to a single answer? Make a suggestion! | Jul 16, 2007 |
I don't take it personally if somebody disagrees with an answer I provided.
What does annoy me, however, is if there is only one answer to a question and people disagree without making suggestions. (Not just my own. I'm trying to make a general statement here). After all, we're trying to help one another here. I personally welcome constructive criticism, and if an answer is wrong, I like to know why and what would be a better suggestion.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always thoug... See more I don't take it personally if somebody disagrees with an answer I provided.
What does annoy me, however, is if there is only one answer to a question and people disagree without making suggestions. (Not just my own. I'm trying to make a general statement here). After all, we're trying to help one another here. I personally welcome constructive criticism, and if an answer is wrong, I like to know why and what would be a better suggestion.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always thought that some kind of answer to a question is better than no answer at all.
Please, disagree if you need to. I'd just like to be told why. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 14:51
German to English
+ ...
| Who's the "big-head"? | Jul 16, 2007 |
IreneN wrote:
Some big heads:-)
Irene
Hmmm ... not a promising start.
IreneN wrote:
To participate in an international discussion, to offer your opinion to the rest of the world and expect nothing but agree...
Irene
So you're as such agreeing with the poster that the knee-jerk negative responses they have received after giving non-native-English-speakers a Disagree on justified grounds are due to the latter's narrow-minded view?
Please clarify.
| | | | Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 08:51
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
IreneN wrote: Patricia Struyk wrote:
Let people learn from disagrees My understanding of the purpose of disagree always was "let US learn from disagrees". Kinda proves my point...
I think by "people" Patricia meant "answerers".
Maria
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| Just "some kind of answer" isn't the idea behind Kudoz. "No answer" is better in that case | Jul 16, 2007 |
Margreet Logmans wrote:
Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always thought that some kind of answer to a question is better than no answer at all.
The 'fill-in-the-blank' type of answer, ie something instead of nothing, isn't the actual idea behind Kudoz. It's not 'let's have a guess'-Kudoz is supposed to provide genuine specialised help to pro translators who are working hard themselves and have come across a term or phrase that has them stumped. So it's not supposed to be a game of 'who can copy from the dico fastest' either.
I don't see the immediate necessity to provide an answer after a disagree. As discussed above, it can be very unpleasant when people give an answer and then turn around and disagree with other answers on the page.
But the rule is that disagrees must be justified and the explanation provided is often enough help for an informed Asker.
| | | | Margreet Logmans (X)
Netherlands
Local time: 14:51
English to Dutch
+ ...
| Explanation of previous post and some more | Jul 16, 2007 |
writeaway wrote:
It's not 'let's have a guess'-Kudoz is supposed to provide genuine specialised help to pro translators who are working hard themselves and have come across a term or phrase that has them stumped. So it's not supposed to be a game of 'who can copy from the dico fastest' either.
Of course I didn't mean 'let's have a guess', but an honest attempt to answer a question, if only to point someone in the right direction.
If I see just a 'disagree' without further attempt to give an answer, I get a bit annoyed. It's easy to say something is wrong, but at least that person tried. And I am assuming they tried their best.
'Copy from the dico' (IMHO) is just not good. After all, aren't we supposed to only ask KudoZ questions when all resources have been tried? With the exception of very specialised dictionaries, of course. One cannot have all dictionaries that are available out there.
As for the rule that disagrees must be justified: all too often I see just the red letters 'disagree' without any explanation. That is a pity. It's from being corrected that we learn the most.
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 14:51
Italian to English
In memoriam | Patricia hit the nail on the head... | Jul 16, 2007 |
... when she said ""Dead wrong" vs. "I wouldn't put it that way".
Both comments are effectively "disagrees" but the second is much more constructive and invites discussion, not an emotional reaction.
AllegroTrans wrote:
This all makes me wonder if we really need a "neutral" option.
I wonder whether we really need a "disagree" option
There are plenty of questions - the interesting ones, IMO - that simply do not have a single correct answer.
In those cases, a "neutral" comment often starts a useful discussion whereas an inflammatory red "disagree" can provoke an unnecessarily belligerent response.
FWIW
Giles
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