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Dirty Tactics? Peer DISAGREE and then Post your own ANSWER... (question mark added by staff)
Thread poster: R-i-c-h-a-r-d

R-i-c-h-a-r-d  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 05:39
Member (2006)
Portuguese to English
+ ...
Sep 17, 2007

Hi ALL,

Could somebody tell me if disagreeing with a another person's post and then posting your own answer is 'prohibited'?

As far as I'm concerned, it should be.

I have in the past contacted a moderator about this and they have told me "yes, you're right, it's against the rules". Someone shouldn't disagree with you (or anyone else) and then post their own answer - it's dirty tactics and against the rules.

I thought this was standard Kudoz common sense. Keep it clean. Disagree by all means but don't do it in order to boost your own chances of getting selected - otherwise Kudoz just becomes a boring bickersome game, instead of being a helpful activity and a product of our industriousness.

Well, I have been reading the Kudoz rules and I can't see the aforementioned rule anywhere (any more!!). Has it been removed? Did it exist once? Have I imagined it? Thanks!






[Edited at 2007-09-17 02:38]

[Edited at 2007-09-17 02:38]

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2007-09-17 13:54]


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Enrique Cavalitto
Local time: 05:39
SITE STAFF
There is not such a rule Sep 17, 2007

Hi Richard,

There is not such a rule and, as far as I can remember, there was never such a rule. Disagrees should be based solely on linguistic evaluation of answers provided, but you can provide an answer and disagree with one or more answers to the same question.

Regards,
Enrique


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Jande  Identity Verified
Australia
Local time: 19:39
Danish to English
+ ...
If the answer is wrong you have to disagree Sep 17, 2007

Sometimes a person's answer is what you think is wrong so you may have to disagree and put in what you think the correct answer is in order to prevent what you think is a wrong translation.

Othertimes you just have another suggestion, but the other person's/people's answer is still correct. Then you don't need to disagree.


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Andrew Levine  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:39
Member (2007)
French to English
+ ...
Not sure what the problem is. Sep 17, 2007

I too don't see what the problem is with this practice. KudoZ is not a game where the person with the highest total of agrees-minus-disagrees wins. Instead, the asker considers all of the suggestions and feedback given, and determines who provided the best insight. In that light, it's hard to see how it's unethical to explain why another user's suggestion is dubious (if in fact it is) and then produce a hopefully better alternative. Indeed, it seems like it is more helpful to the asker to do that than to disagree without suggesting a better option. And the whole point of KudoZ is to be as helpful to the asker as possible.

[Edited at 2007-09-17 03:39]


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Claudia Alvis  Identity Verified
Peru
Local time: 03:39
Member
Spanish
+ ...
I Disagree. It shouldn't be prohibited. Sep 17, 2007

IMHO:

There have been a lot of discussions about this topic. I personally think that people are too 'cautious' (for the lack of a better word) about using the 'disagree' option, while others--and this is much worse, take those disagree's as personal attacks. It's never nice to get a 'disagree' but we're professionals here.

When it comes to making peer comments, we have 3 options: agree, neutral and disagree. And I think each one of those options have a legitimate function. So I don't understand why if a translation proposed is BLATANTLY wrong, you shouldn't disagree? Sometimes people start agreeing on the first answer or on the answer with the most agree's, even if the answer is wrong (for whatever reasons).

Imagine this scenario:
1. Somebody posts a wrong answer with lots of references. You know that the answer is wrong for the particular context or because the answerer didn't read the context, or because it's a common mistake. It's just dead wrong.
2. You've run across that term before, you've done the proper research so you're 100% positive that you know the correct answer, so you post it, even without references.
3. You DON'T disagree with the wrong answer or use the neutral button.
4. The asker chooses the wrong answer because of the number of references, agrees or because it 'sounds' better or because s/he doesn't know enough about the subject, and the term in entered in the glossaries.
5. A person finds the incorrect term in the KOG but since it has so many agrees and references, doesn't bother to read all the other proposed answers. (It shouldn't happen but it does, I've done it myself.)

"Keep it clean":
The KudoZ system is not there just to accumulate KudoZ points or to gain visibility. One of the best things about ProZ is the KOG Glossaries. And I'm sure we've all seen entries that shouldn't be there, and, IMO, one of the reasons this happens is because people here are too politically correct. I'm not saying that we should start disagreeing with every answer that might or could be wrong but we can't be so shy about disagreeing in certain circumstances. And if someone has disagreed with one answer, s/he shouldn't be denied the right to propose an answer.

[Edited at 2007-09-17 03:47]


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William [Bill] Gray  Identity Verified
Norway
Local time: 09:39
Member (2006)
English
+ ...
But what else can one do....? Sep 17, 2007

There are TWO quite distinct issues here:
1. the peer comment feature
2. the answering feature

1. Peer comments:
If I disagree with an answer that is provided, I act as a responsible person and state my disagreement (I don't think I have utilised this function very much at all, but on the occasions I have done so, it has been because I really DID disagree with the answer which had been offered, and felt it was necessary for the asker to know that was my considered opinion). This is surely the essence and spirit of the KudoZ element. It has happened quite often to me (sometimes by someone who has already posted an answer!), and while I may sometimes counter the person who has disagreed with me, I have never felt "cheated" through their disagreement. Quite the contrary, they have sometimes pointed out an aspect which I had not considered.

2. Answering:
I find this to be one of the most worthwhile exercises within ProZ. It is not only a place where I can get answers to finding the nuance/contextual correctness that I need in my work, but I can contribute when others have a similar challenge.

These two issues are, of course, related. If I disagree with an answer which is the only one given, then it is highly likely (almost necessary!) that I will provide a solution myself. Similarly, if I provide an answer to a question that already has (an) answer(s), then in a way that may be seen as disagreeing with the others, though not necessarily.

This is part of the collegial engagement we have here, and
makes the fee paid to ProZ each year worth the cost. I win each time! Even with a disagree on my answer I get something which helps me focus my thinking and consider new/different angles. I even have the (small) possibility to respond (very briefly - not much room in those text fields!) and say why I had offered my answer.

If I ONLY want KudoZ for the points, then of course a "double whammy" disagree plus another answer will hit me hard. And I DO want KudoZ points, don't get me wrong. I always refer my clients to my ProZ.com page and invite them to view my engagement with the translating environment. But I am not ALWAYS right (though I hope I am getting better!). As to forbidding these two actions within the same question, that would be a disaster for the community as a whole, instead of having the healthy learning situation for me as a translator.

Oops.. that was a "rave" (unintentionally! Sorry! Hope it helps.



Bill


[Edited at 2007-09-17 04:48]


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R-i-c-h-a-r-d  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 05:39
Member (2006)
Portuguese to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
...just a gentle nudge... Sep 17, 2007

Yes, I agree with you all, especially Bill.

If an answer is WRO-O-ONG, then of course, it should be disagreed with, wholeheartedly so. (Imagine if you 'couldn't disagree' with a wrong answer! What a travesty.)

However, I'm sure that I have read a Kudoz rule that says that you should NOT use the disagree feature in order to boost your own chances of being awarded the Kudoz goodies.

Some people use 'disagree' like a big dirty stick, allll over the place. Should there not be some form of distinction between common sense disagreeing with wrong answers and the liberal brandishing of disagreeing aforementioned big dirty sticks?

[Edited at 2007-09-17 05:14]


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Andrew Levine  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:39
Member (2007)
French to English
+ ...
I still don't understand... Sep 17, 2007

Richard Jenkins posted: you should NOT use the disagree feature in order to boost your own chances of being awarded the KudoZ goodies.

Could you explain how injudicious use of the Disagree function on other's answers boosts one's own chances of being selected? If the asker thinks that the disagreement is invalid, he/she will ignore it. If someone posts a disagree comment that simply says "No, you're wrong," and offers no further explanation as to why, the asker can and will simply disregard the objection. The same is true if the disagreer actually does make an objection, but the asker finds it incongruous, pedantic, or silly.

As an example, I recently asked a KudoZ question, where one response got two Agrees and no Disagrees, while another user's response got no Agrees and one Disagree (along with an explanation why). However, I ended up awarding points to the latter, because in the end it proved more useful to me and led me to the solution I needed.

[Edited at 2007-09-17 05:42]


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Lietta Warren-Granato  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 09:39
Italian to English
+ ...
not everybody uses dirty tricks Sep 17, 2007

Richard Jenkins posted: Some people use 'disagree' like a big dirty stick, allll over the place.

I agree (!) with what Richard says, but I have also seen the opposite thing happen: someone AGREES with one of the answers and then posts their own answer. I am sure I have seen it done quite recently in my language pair, and I thought it was a very honest thing to do.

I also agree with whoever said that we are using AGREES/DISAGREES as political correctness tools, and we are trying to be 'too nice' when in fact a DISAGREE to a wrong answer would be much more helpful.


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Hilde Granlund  Identity Verified
Norway
Local time: 09:39
English to Norwegian
+ ...
Don't see the problem either Sep 17, 2007

If you disagree with an answer that is wrong, and provide your own- correct - answer, you have helped the asker.
If you just disagree, and have no suggestion of your own, you have not been very helpful.
If you disagree with an answer that is correct, and provide your own answer that is wrong, or just a synonym - you have made yourself look stupid, and of course your colleagues will note that and think less of your answers in the future.

I think the rule rather says something like you should disagree with as many answers as you thing are wrong, and agree with the one(s) you think is right.
And rightly so.


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 09:39
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...

MODERATOR
Please get it right, Richard. Sep 17, 2007

Richard Jenkins wrote:Keep it clean. Disagree by all means but don't do it in order to boost your own chances of getting selected - otherwise Kudoz just becomes a boring bickersome game, instead of being a helpful activity and a product of our industriousness.


"boost your own chances of getting selected".
This is the very essence of the Kudoz system:
You provide the most helpful answer and then "get selected".

Your criticism is therefore directed against the whole KudoZ system and few would agree that KudoZ is a bad thing.

Providing a disagree AND suggesting a better answer is exactly what good KudoZ participants do.

IMHO the rule 3.5 http://www.proz.com/?sp=siterules&mode=show&category=kudoz_answ should be amended thus: (My amended in bold):

"Peer comments must be purely linguistic. As elsewhere in the site, personal comments are not allowed in peer comments. Notes should be based solely on linguistic evaluation of answers provided. Backing up peer comments with references is encouraged" as are improved alternative answers.

Mats

[Edited at 2007-09-17 06:34]


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xxxMarc P  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:39
German to English
+ ...
Disagree Sep 17, 2007

Mats Wiman wrote:

few would agree that KudoZ is a bad thing


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Dorene Cornwell  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:39
Russian to English
+ ...
Disagree does not mean my answer is best Sep 17, 2007

I use DISAGREE when something is blatantly outrageously WRONG, when using it would make the Asker look like an idiot or create extreme safety problems or ridiculous and inappropriate humor. But knowing something is wrong does not guarantee I will post a correct answer.

So I think a rule like the one initially proposed here would be silly.


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megane_wang  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:39
English to Spanish
+ ...
Absolutely disagree Sep 17, 2007

You usually disagree with an answer you consider absolutely wrong. This should never prevent you from giving a right suggestion. This makes absolutely no sense !

I don't know if anyone uses that as "i-don-t-know-which-tactics", but the most important thing is to help to find the right answer.

That rule would seem incredibly silly to me.

Ruth @ MW


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Michele Fauble  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 01:39
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
Help the asker Sep 17, 2007

If the answer is wrong or otherwise unacceptable, disagreeing helps the asker avoid making a wrong choice. If you have disagreed with an answer, and no correct answer has been suggested, and you know the answer, why wouldn't you post a correct answer?


[Edited at 2007-09-17 08:30]


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