Off topic: Garçon! There's a silly French word in my soup Thread poster: Els Thant, M.A., B.Tr. (X)
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Els Thant, M.A., B.Tr. (X)
Ecuador
Local time: 11:07
Spanish to Dutch
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I thought this article might be interesting for those of you who translate menus, but also for gourmet translators...:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1583065,00.html
Garçon! There's a silly French word in my soup
Martin Bentham
Sunday October 2, 2005
The Observer
Fed up with restaurant menus that tal... See more I thought this article might be interesting for those of you who translate menus, but also for gourmet translators...:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1583065,00.html
Garçon! There's a silly French word in my soup
Martin Bentham
Sunday October 2, 2005
The Observer
Fed up with restaurant menus that talk about carpaccios, daubes and tagines? Well, at last, a backlash has begun against the proliferation of foreign words littering the menus of modern British restaurants.
The latest edition of the Caterer and Hotelkeeper magazine, the bible of the food industry, tears into the trend for using 'absurd' and 'fraudulent' words from French, Italian and other languages to describe what are often straightforward dishes that could be described simply in English.
Among the terms singled out for ridicule are 'millefeuille of aubergine' - which bears no resemblance to a puff pastry cake filled with jam and cream - and a 'capuccino of white beans' that has nothing to do with coffee. Scorn is also directed at a 'gateau of grilled vegetables', hardly suitable for those with a sweet tooth, and a 'bouillabaisse of sardines', which appears to have little connection with the Provençale soup or stew the name suggests.
The article is by former chef and restaurant critic Bill Knott, who says that such terms are a nonsense.
'The game of gastronomic Chinese whispers, in which a modish, foreign-sounding dish goes through so many incarnations that it has become completely meaningless, is all the rage,' he writes. 'Toast becomes bruschetta or crostini, a toasted sandwich is now a panini, a sauce is a jus or a coulis, and a stew is a daube or a tagine.'
He says that not only are the terms incomprehensible, they are also wrong. 'Many are thoroughly inaccurate and deeply misleading. Dishes I have seen on smart menus range from the faintly absurd to the distinctly fraudulent. Many chefs seem to think that food sounds better if it's not written in English.'
Michel Roux Jr, chef at London's Le Gavroche restaurant, which has three Michelin stars, said that he was also fed up with ludicrous descriptions.
'A carpaccio of courgette, what the hell is that? A carpaccio is of beef, not courgette. Similarly, you have a navarin of lobster, when it should be a navarin of lamb. It's totally inaccurate, and what annoys me even more is that nine times out of 10 the words are mis-spelt.
'I can understand and forgive a little bit of it when it's used in a clever way, by people who understand the terms, but if the words are just used as embellishment to dress up a rather sad menu, forget it.'
Marcus Wareing, chef at Petrus restaurant in London, said foreign words could be justified, but only if they were accurate and the quality of the food matched the description.
'I don't think there's anything wrong with using millefeuille or capuccino - it's quite nice - but it depends on what is actually being cooked. There is an element in cooking and restaurants that writes better than it delivers. It is very easy to put words on paper, but not so easy to put something exceptional on a plate.'
Knott said he had been prompted to speak out by the increasingly baffling menus with which he was confronted. Some, he suspected, used elaborate language in an attempt to justify higher prices.
'Some restaurants think that if you call something a daube you can charge £12, whereas if you said it was a stew you could probably only charge £8. At least with Italian and French menus you are supplied with a translation, but with modern British food many people just don't know what they are getting.
To help bemused diners, here are a few French translations which may (or may not) be helpful:
Hachis parmentier Shepherd's pie
Pot au feu d'agneau aux pommes de terre et aux oignons Lancashire hotpot
Saucisses en pote au four Toad in the hole
Boudin noir Black pudding
Feuilleté de boeuf et de foie Steak and kidney pie
Boule aux épices et aux fruits secs Spotted dick
[Edited at 2005-10-03 22:39] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jeff Whittaker 
United States
Local time: 12:07
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1583065,00.html
Whenever there are commas in a link, you have to use HTML code to capture the entire link.
[quote]Els Thant wrote:
I thought this article might be interesting for those of you who translate menus, but also for gourmet translators...:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1583065,00.html
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1583065,00.html
[Edited at 2005-10-03 22:35]
Sorry, apparently there is a problem with the link. Let me see if I can solve it
[Edited at 2005-10-03 22:42]
| | | | RHELLER
United States
Local time: 10:07
French to English
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| need a degree in menu terminology? | Oct 3, 2005 |
Thanks Els,
I enjoyed that article.
| | | | Els Thant, M.A., B.Tr. (X)
Ecuador
Local time: 11:07
Spanish to Dutch
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TOPIC STARTER
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Henry Hinds
United States
Local time: 10:07
English to Spanish
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In memoriam | Better in French | Oct 4, 2005 |
Some of those would be best left in French. If ever saw them on a menu in English, especially these two, I'd get sick right there:
Saucisses en pote au four Toad in the hole
Boule aux 鰩ces et aux fruits secs Spotted dick
| | | | Buzzy
Local time: 18:07
French to English
| Henry, you're right | Oct 4, 2005 |
But even when the names of dishes aren't particularly strange, it's true that language plays a part, and not just in the perceived value.
Ever since I spent a year in Brittany as a student many moons ago, I have pondered the mystery: why is a "galette oeuf-jambon-fromage' (or galette complète) so nice, when I don't think I would ever order a "ham, cheese and egg savoury pancake"? Even now, 20 years later and living in the land of the galette, the English version doesn't sound like the sam... See more But even when the names of dishes aren't particularly strange, it's true that language plays a part, and not just in the perceived value.
Ever since I spent a year in Brittany as a student many moons ago, I have pondered the mystery: why is a "galette oeuf-jambon-fromage' (or galette complète) so nice, when I don't think I would ever order a "ham, cheese and egg savoury pancake"? Even now, 20 years later and living in the land of the galette, the English version doesn't sound like the same thing at all to me! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Fiona Gonçalves
Portugal
Local time: 17:07
Member
Portuguese to English
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| translated menus | Oct 4, 2005 |
I'm sure some of you must also have come across some desperately poor translations of menus too. Here in Portugal, a favourite dish is "Cozido à Portuguesa", which is a mixture of different meats and vegetables boiled together. The funniest translation I have seen of this so far is "Boiled Portuguese". Ouch! Painful, wouldn't you say?
| | | | NancyLynn
Canada
Local time: 12:07
Member (2002)
French to English
+ ...
Moderator of this forum
Els Thant wrote:
Feuilleté de boeuf et de foie Steak and kidney pie
foie = liver; kidney - rognons.
that's why so many dislike foreign words in menus, they can definitely be misleading!
Nancy
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Carolyn Brice
Greece
Local time: 19:07
Member (2005)
French to English
+ ...
| British food vs French food | Oct 5, 2005 |
I agree that often they are just trying to make things sound posh and therefore charge more, but I also think British cooking and French/Italian/etc just aren't comparable.
It's a question of taste and what you're used to, but things like pork pies, cornish pasties, spotted dick, boiled this and boiled that just don't make my mouth water like French dishes do (I say French, because that's what I know).
As I said, it's a question of what you're used to and grew up with. ... See more I agree that often they are just trying to make things sound posh and therefore charge more, but I also think British cooking and French/Italian/etc just aren't comparable.
It's a question of taste and what you're used to, but things like pork pies, cornish pasties, spotted dick, boiled this and boiled that just don't make my mouth water like French dishes do (I say French, because that's what I know).
As I said, it's a question of what you're used to and grew up with. I was brought up on French food generally, as well as dishes from many other countries. The point was not to turn your nose up before you tried it. But having been brought up in England, I do have first hand knowledge of British food. The best restaurants in Britain are foreign!
[Edited at 2005-10-06 09:45] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paul VALET (X)
France
Local time: 18:07
| Let me have a dream, please! | Oct 10, 2005 |
When I walk in London, I can imagine people speak French there, because there are lots of French words written in block letters on the windows of the restaurants.
It makes me think we, French, are not completly bad at exporting, and that if an only French word will survive in the English speaking flooding, it will be "baguette", or something like that.
Regards,
Paul
| | | | Uldis Liepkalns
Latvia
Local time: 19:07
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
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| Latvian joke | Oct 10, 2005 |
Gentlemen comes into Latvian restaurant, reads the menu and indignantly calls the garcon: “And what is this???”- pointing at the menu entry “boiled skunk’s rectal parts with yesterday’s sauce”.
The garcon takes the menu, studies it for some time, then shouts across the hall to the head-cook: “Anton, Anton, they again have forgotten to translate our menu into French before printing…”
Bon appetit,
Uldis ... See more Gentlemen comes into Latvian restaurant, reads the menu and indignantly calls the garcon: “And what is this???”- pointing at the menu entry “boiled skunk’s rectal parts with yesterday’s sauce”.
The garcon takes the menu, studies it for some time, then shouts across the hall to the head-cook: “Anton, Anton, they again have forgotten to translate our menu into French before printing…”
Bon appetit,
Uldis
[Edited at 2005-10-10 22:12] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | British food makes me really homesick! | Nov 7, 2005 |
Among my truly favourite dishes were:
Toad in the hole with peas and apple sauce - one of my mother's specialities, but you need an old-fashioned Aga cooker to get the batter quite right.
Haggis - our Northumbrian village butcher made some of the best on the border, and knew just the right way to mix barley and thyme (and the other more or less secret ingredients...)
Liver and bacon with tomato, onions and thyme - we still love that!
Cock a lee... See more Among my truly favourite dishes were:
Toad in the hole with peas and apple sauce - one of my mother's specialities, but you need an old-fashioned Aga cooker to get the batter quite right.
Haggis - our Northumbrian village butcher made some of the best on the border, and knew just the right way to mix barley and thyme (and the other more or less secret ingredients...)
Liver and bacon with tomato, onions and thyme - we still love that!
Cock a leekie
(now that's quite lyrical, and you won't be disappointed by the flavour)
'Thames barges' - hunks of shortbread with masses of chocolate-flavoured custard for pudding
Apple pie, apple crumble, baked apples... anything with apples
....
All my Danish family drool over the Christmas cake - and it's actually less fattening than all their biscuits, with lots more fruit and less fat...
It's supper time.
We're having what the Danes call 'ryd op i køleskabet' (Clear out the fridge) - after a good weekend.
Velbekomme - Bon appetit! ▲ Collapse
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Tony M
France
Local time: 18:07
Member
French to English
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SITE LOCALIZER | Sticking up for English cooking! | Nov 11, 2005 |
Just because it doesn't have a lyrical name, doesn't mean it's less good!
Some of the best meals I've had have been here in France -- and also some of the worst!
But some of the good old traditional English dishes are at least as good as French peasant cooking equivalents; what we lack, if anything, is the notion of 'haute cuisine' --- where it exists, it inevitably seems to veer towards the French.
What is sad is not that "the best restaurants in En... See more Just because it doesn't have a lyrical name, doesn't mean it's less good!
Some of the best meals I've had have been here in France -- and also some of the worst!
But some of the good old traditional English dishes are at least as good as French peasant cooking equivalents; what we lack, if anything, is the notion of 'haute cuisine' --- where it exists, it inevitably seems to veer towards the French.
What is sad is not that "the best restaurants in England are foreign", but that we don't have enough pride in our national cuisine (or a too snobbish!) to celebrate it in the same way --- not 'exotic' enough, perhaps.
As an aside, our local hotel here in its brochure vaunting its (rather sad) restaurant, said that "Jean XXX cooks up some delicious dishes in the kitchen, while his wife Marie describes them beautifully in the dining room"
Actually, I have to say that neither the descriptions, nor his wife, were particularly 'beautiful' --- especially when she was desperately trying to describe tripe to us, seeking to put us off ordering something we didn't know what it was. ▲ Collapse
| | | | PB Trans
Local time: 17:07
French to English
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| Brilliant article! | Feb 1, 2006 |
So true! I always have such a hard time translating French gourmet menus into English. I usually have to ask the chef to describe the dish!
In Quebec, we call Shepherd's Pie "pâté chinois". I have NO idea why we think it's Chinese!! I looked it up and found this: http://experts.about.com/e/p/p/P�t�_chinois.htm
| | | | NancyLynn
Canada
Local time: 12:07
Member (2002)
French to English
+ ...
Moderator of this forum
The recipe is straightforward in that link but please note, the hamburger should be cooked before the layering process.
I tend to agree with the railway worker theory.
Something that struck me when I moved to Cornwall from Hull (er, Gatineau Qué.) was that my anglo in-laws refer to this dish as pâté chinois also.
Nancy
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