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"With all that it entails" vs "With all that entails"
Thread poster: jyuan_us

jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:22
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
May 14, 2017

I came across both of these expressions. Can you let me know which one is correct? If they are both correct, do they mean exactly the same?

I particularly like the ideas of the native English speakers. Thanks!



[Edited at 2017-05-14 01:28 GMT]

[Edited at 2017-05-14 02:01 GMT]

[Edited at 2017-05-14 02:07 GMT]


 

Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:22
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Context May 14, 2017

"......with all that it entails" is correct, as a qualifying phrase that follows a statement.

"With all that entails..." is very problematic. It is difficult to think of any context in which the phrase would be correct. It would only be usable as part of the construction of a very complex, labyrinthine, convoluted statement that I cannot imagine (and with all that it would entail).

icon_smile.gif

[Edited at 2017-05-14 06:59 GMT]


 

DZiW
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
ANTECEDENT May 14, 2017

Considering what it refers to, it's quite easy to follow with the context in mind.

By the way, why not KudoZ?


 

Jack Doughty  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:22
Member (2000)
Russian to English
+ ...
second one deletes one "that". May 14, 2017

The second version is considered correct and acceptable as it stands, but it is actually a shorter version of "all that that entails".

 

Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:22
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
Avoiding the second "that" May 14, 2017

Strictly speaking, I suppose, "with all that that entails" is correct. If you want to avoid repeating the word "that" (although it is grammatically correct) you could say "with all that doing so entails".

 

Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:22
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Or May 14, 2017

Or you could be really daring and leave out the "that" completely, as in

"with all it entails"



"An entailment is a deduction or implication, that is, something that follows logically from or is implied by something else"

http://tinyurl.com/lfw3koc

Oops - must go. My cat is scratching to be let in (with all that it entails).

[Edited at 2017-05-14 09:03 GMT]


 

Carole Wolfe  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:22
Member (2006)
Russian to English
+ ...
Both are correct within sentences May 14, 2017

"With all that it entails" is correct.
IT refers to a antecedent.
Example: An engineer has been called in to handle the bridge construction.
He will be closely involved with all that IT [bridge construction] entails.

"With all that entails"
Example: An engineer has been called in.
He will be closely involved with all that entails bridge construction while others will design embankments
and canals.


 

Chris S  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Swedish to English
+ ...
Interesting May 15, 2017

The answer is that both are perfectly OK and just use two different meanings of "that" (conjunction/pronoun), as previously explained.

What's interesting for me is that two native speakers have misunderstood the second variant even after thinking about it carefully (as I would assume they would before replying).

Maybe that wouldn't happen in a fuller context, but it's a good illustration of why all texts can benefit from a second pair of eyes: it's so easy for there to be a gap between what is meant and what is understood, even when the language is perfectly correct.


 

Mirko Mainardi  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 12:22
Member
English to Italian
Same usage? May 15, 2017

Personally, I thought the OP was referring to both expressions being used the same way (i.e. "Blah blah blah" + "with all [that it]/[that] entails" + optionally something else), with "it" and "that" both referring to what was previously said.

As a non native speaker, I thought both were correct in that context (although perhaps "(that) it" is more common?), but I noticed other posters expressed different opinions and perplexities about this. I took the omission of the second "that" for granted, as I would do the same in case I said/wrote something like "I'd say (that) it/that's pretty common".

P.S. I'd venture to guess the same reasoning would apply to "(that) this entails".

Examples:

"The Convention's approach to disability is rooted in the understanding that disabled people should be equal members of society with the same human rights as all others, not that they are to be seen as passive objects, recipients of charity with all that entails in terms of status and popular attitudes." - http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt200809/jtselect/jtrights/9/09we12.htm

"As a result there will be nothing to prevent a considerable increase in the use of compulsion with all that entails in terms of professional time and administrative resources ..." - http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhealth/373/0040608.htm

"Parish councils are an important part of the structure of local government, but they often feel that they have to take an unfair and disproportionate regulatory burden, the latest of which is that they will all be obliged to employ their parish clerks, with all that entails, such as making national insurance contributions, although many such clerks get only an honorarium, which they could easily declare in their annual personal tax return." - http://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2011-04-04/debates/1104043000030/TopicalQuestions

"Yes, if people can avoid going to court, with all that entails, of course conciliation should be sought, whether through ACAS or by some other means." - http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201314/cmgeneral/deleg1/130610/130610s01.htm

"To have ease of mediation and an easily accessible and more efficient system of mediation is a key to people obtaining justice without the more expensive measures involved in going before the Supreme Court, with all that entails, particularly the costs." - http://www.parliament.wa.gov.au/hansard/hans35.nsf/c02fad1ff7f00ecbc82572e4002d0af9/a8178418e9493f2a4825690a0021ca5f?OpenDocument

"It is a human system; you have human beings delivering a service with all that entails." - http://www.gov.mb.ca/legislature/hansard/36th_3rd/vol_004/h004_3.html


 

jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:22
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
This was exactly what I meant May 15, 2017

Mirko Mainardi wrote:

Personally, I thought the OP was referring to both expressions being used the same way (i.e. "Blah blah blah" + "with all [that it]/[that] entails" + optionally something else), with "it" and "that" both referring to what was previously said.

with all that entails." - http://www.gov.mb.ca/legislature/hansard/36th_3rd/vol_004/h004_3.html


I Googled both of them as set phrases and I found 376,000 hits for "with all that entails" and 340,000 hits for "with all that it entails". Form these results I had got no hint about which is the correct, or better one. It seems that many native English speakers used them interchangeably but I'm not sure. That's why I raised this question in the first place.

I didn't put them in any context simply because things will become absolutely clear in context and there will be no room for discussion. I just wanted to see how you would use it for any context you may need to use it.

[Edited at 2017-05-16 00:27 GMT]


 

Carole Wolfe  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:22
Member (2006)
Russian to English
+ ...
Equal in meaning May 15, 2017

Strictly speaking, for these two to be equal in meaning, a second "that" needs to be inserted in "with all that entails."
Example:
"She will undertake the project with all that it [the project] entails."
is equal in meaning to
"She will undertake the project with all that that [the project] entails.

BUT because of the propensity in English is to drop the second "that," I think these two expressions have come
to have the same meaning.

"With all that entails" can be followed by a direct object but, of course, "with all that it entails" cannot.

Example: He was injured severely in the war and now must deal with all that entails finding proper medical treatment.


 

MollyRose  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:22
Member (2010)
English to Spanish
+ ...
depends on sentence structure May 15, 2017

Carole Wolfe's examples show when to use each. They can't be used interchangeably in the same sentence structure.

 

jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:22
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
"with all that entails" vs "with all that it entails" May 16, 2017

I guess we are taking about the structures in which "all" functions as the object of "entails". The structure in which "all" functions as the subject of "entails" is not a concern.

 

Carole Wolfe  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:22
Member (2006)
Russian to English
+ ...
@ Molly Rose May 16, 2017

They are interchangeable in the same sentence.

Please see Mirko Mainardi's examples below of "with all that entails," an expression that could correctly be replaced by "with all that it entails" without any change in meaning. Don't you think so?


 

Chris S  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Swedish to English
+ ...
@Carole May 16, 2017

To me, a British English speaker, your alternative meaning where "all" is the subject sounds really odd.

In British English, "all" is happily the object in both examples given, and both are equally valid and have exactly the same meaning.


 
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