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A new linguistic challenge in France? No using meat words for vegeterian foods?
Thread poster: Caryl Swift

Caryl Swift  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 03:57
Polish to English
+ ...
Apr 20

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/apr/19/france-vegetarian-foods-no-meat-words?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU%20Today%20main%20NEW%20H%20categories&utm_term=272036&subid=1528580&CMP=EMCNEWEML6619I2

(To the moderators: perhaps this should be posted on the 'Linguistics' forum? Or somewhere else? If so, I apologise for causing you extra work.)

[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2018-04-24 12:46 GMT]


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Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 03:57
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
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Very interesting indeed! Apr 20

Thanks for sharing this piece of news. Indeed, this is quite an important matter: people must not be confused about what they are buying. Alternatives must be found for new ranges of products which, ultimately, could open up a new mindset among consumers. While producers might presently think that this is kind of a setback, in due time, these restrictions on the part of the lawmaker might spur a whole new constellation of attractive product type names.

The challenge here is to devise names capable of triggering thoughts of positivity, health, and planetary wellbeing, and all outside of the realm of brands, i.e. more as generic denominations that can spread around easily. Quite a linguistic feat if you ask me, although I somehow suspect that a few producers will find a solution by sheer chance and/or trial and error, and the rest will simply follow along.


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Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Member (2014)
Danish to English
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Looked like an April Fool Apr 20

I thought it was an April Fool and searched for the date of April 1st in the information, but it's genuine.

I find it totally ridiculous. How can anyone be confused when it clearly says "vegan" or "vegetarian" on a product?

Don't French lawmakers have anything more important to attend to?

From the linguistic point of view, French translators obviously need to be aware of this.


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Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 03:57
Member (Apr 2018)
French to English
Not ridiculous at all Apr 21

Thomas T. Frost wrote:

I thought it was an April Fool and searched for the date of April 1st in the information, but it's genuine.

I find it totally ridiculous. How can anyone be confused when it clearly says "vegan" or "vegetarian" on a product?

Don't French lawmakers have anything more important to attend to?

From the linguistic point of view, French translators obviously need to be aware of this.


I find it perfectly logical. They have already passed legislation to prevent vegan drinks being called "almond milk" for example. Young mothers were feeding it to their babies thinking it contained the same nutrients as cow's milk. Babies have died.

As a veggie myself, I dislike tofu being shaped and smoked and named to look and taste and sound like meat. I once wasted a lot of time looking for a particular product. When I finally asked, I was told it was at the meat counter, because it was called a "steak". I sharply informed them that vegetarians didn't like having to go to the meat counter! I expect they were hoping that meat eaters who didn't usually check out the vegan counter would start buying it.

Things can be very misleading and it's important for people to understand what they're eating, in case of allergies.
The legislation over vegan "milks" has prompted manufacturers to come up with other names like "rice dream" and "almond silk" which I'm sure are more palatable to vegans. Now it's time to embrace tofu and seitan as foods in their own right, not just as "meat substitutes", and to come up with palatable names so people want to try it.


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DZiW
Ukraine
English to Russian
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microbiome miniscule Apr 21

I also find it ridiculous that minority subdues to self-limitations and tries to impose an opinion on the majority how to pigeon-name and treat this or that.

By the way, once I read that every year a man unwittingly eats about a kilo of insects, eggs, and larvae--within ISO limits; not to mention animals' hair and skin parts, what technically renders 'vegetarians" as carnivore)

[Edited at 2018-04-21 11:34 GMT]


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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 04:57
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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See margarine Apr 22

Decades ago producers of margarine tried to make their tradenames sound more like butter, then came legislation and stopped it.

Of course chocolate eggs should be banned, should be called "oval hollow objects"


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Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 03:57
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
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Exactly! Apr 22

Kay Denney wrote:
The legislation over vegan "milks" has prompted manufacturers to come up with other names like "rice dream" and "almond silk" which I'm sure are more palatable to vegans. Now it's time to embrace tofu and seitan as foods in their own right, not just as "meat substitutes", and to come up with palatable names so people want to try it.

This is exactly what I was trying to express, but you put it much clearer than me. Indeed, I think that it belongs to a vegan/vegetarian perspective to envision a different food universe in its own right, separate from conventional food and especially animal products and for reasons that go way further than nutritional values along.

Lawmakers might have begun to open this new world of denominations for down-to-earth reasons, but this could trigger a lot of creative and philosophical work among producers in terms of creating product names that, per se, are perceived as positive and healthy and more in line with a vegan world vision. This will be very interesting to track and, for those of us who are not vegans, will mean some ex profeso visits with pen and paper to the vegan/vegetarian alleys of our supermarkets!


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Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:57
Hebrew to English
Wow, just wow Apr 22

Young mothers were feeding it to their babies thinking it contained the same nutrients as cow's milk.


It's a shame we have to legislate and go to such lengths for such stupidity.


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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 04:57
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
I live on it Apr 22

Ty Kendall wrote:

Young mothers were feeding it to their babies thinking it contained the same nutrients as cow's milk.


It's a shame we have to legislate and go to such lengths for such stupidity.


Most of my work are instructions fpr use of different machinery. Always when somewhere a guy has managed to hurt himself doing something really stupid I get the files for an update, where it says how to avoid this stupidity.


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Thomas T. Frost  Identity Verified
Member (2014)
Danish to English
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Didn't they know that it wasn't cow's milk? Apr 22

Kay Denney wrote:

Young mothers were feeding it to their babies thinking it contained the same nutrients as cow's milk. Babies have died.


In the cases I have read about, the parents were perfectly aware that they were not feeding produce of animal origin to their babies, but wanted the baby to eat only vegetarian/vegan food out of conviction. Calling it something else is unlikely to help in such cases if parents don't listen to medical advice. You can't legislate ignorance out of existence.

Kay Denney wrote:

The legislation over vegan "milks" has prompted manufacturers to come up with other names like "rice dream" and "almond silk" which I'm sure are more palatable to vegans.


Silk is produced by silkworms and therefore not a vegan product. And what if this name makes some idiot believe that silk is edible? When he suffocates while eating his silk tie, his family may sue the almond silk outfit.


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Victor Araujo  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 22:57
Member (Apr 2018)
German to English
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Language precision Apr 22

If you want to consume/sell something that is not milk but looks like it, I believe you should use some word like “milk-like” or the corresponding variation. Not only it would be fair both to sellers and to consumers, it would also be more precise language. Of course if it is to be called “milk-like” it should not have an apperciable amount of milk or milk products. Some products do have both animal and vegetable content. Those should of course be named as something like “mixed animal-vegetable” products.

Not only each people has his/hes wrights to consume products according to vegan/vegetarian/carnivore beliefs. It is also known that certain products - like lactose but also gluten, phenilalanine (an aminoacid present in both animal and vegetal products), etc.

The linguists of course should behave accordingly, independently of their own belefs.

Mark me, I am a “no-fish” carnivore, and I prefer vergetable (salt-less and trans-fat exempt) rather than butter. But I have absolutely nothing against “yellow” cheeses - be it “yellow-fat” or those where the color is due to some added ingredient or coloring.

Bottom line: we need more precise language when it comes to food. The formulas should also be more clearly and completely disclosed. This is an issue for nutritionists, bromatologists and linguists.


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Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 03:57
Member (Apr 2018)
French to English
You can't legislate ignorance out of existence, but you can inform Apr 23

Thomas T. Frost wrote:

Kay Denney wrote:

Young mothers were feeding it to their babies thinking it contained the same nutrients as cow's milk. Babies have died.


In the cases I have read about, the parents were perfectly aware that they were not feeding produce of animal origin to their babies, but wanted the baby to eat only vegetarian/vegan food out of conviction. Calling it something else is unlikely to help in such cases if parents don't listen to medical advice. You can't legislate ignorance out of existence.

Kay Denney wrote:

The legislation over vegan "milks" has prompted manufacturers to come up with other names like "rice dream" and "almond silk" which I'm sure are more palatable to vegans.


Silk is produced by silkworms and therefore not a vegan product. And what if this name makes some idiot believe that silk is edible? When he suffocates while eating his silk tie, his family may sue the almond silk outfit.


yes, they were aware of it not being of animal origin. Calling the stuff "milk" does imply that nutritive benefits will be the same.
You can't legislate ignorance out of existence, but you can inform, you can use terms that aren't misleading.

For the silk issue, well yes you're right! I'm not saying they should use that word either, I just found that it had been used. I agree that it shouldn't be used if you follow the logic through.


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Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 03:57
Member (Apr 2018)
French to English
yup! Apr 23

Ty Kendall wrote:

Young mothers were feeding it to their babies thinking it contained the same nutrients as cow's milk.


It's a shame we have to legislate and go to such lengths for such stupidity.


Compare also to the scandal where Chinese manufacturers were putting plastic sawdust in formula to "boost protein content". Far more babies died of that.


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Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 03:57
Member (Apr 2018)
French to English
Not sure what you mean here Apr 23

DZiW wrote:

I also find it ridiculous that minority subdues to self-limitations and tries to impose an opinion on the majority how to pigeon-name and treat this or that.

By the way, once I read that every year a man unwittingly eats about a kilo of insects, eggs, and larvae--within ISO limits; not to mention animals' hair and skin parts, what technically renders 'vegetarians" as carnivore)

[Edited at 2018-04-21 11:34 GMT]

I'm not sure what you mean but I get that you are being derogatory to my lifestyle.
Swallowing insects by accident is not a problem for me as a vegetarian. The problem as I see it, is how livestock is raised and slaughtered. Go and look it up on YouTube, see if you can stomach the videos.
And minorities jolly well should be able to impose their views. Like the idea that slavery should be abolished, that was a minority view at the time. As was doing away with capital punishment.
I'm not asking you to become veggie, just to show me some respect.

By the way, the legislation mentioned here is as much to protect carnivores from eating substitutes when they want to eat real meat as to make sure vegetarians can find suitable foods. I personally welcome the legislation for both reasons.


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DZiW
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
Respect is when due, not demanded Apr 23

Dear Kay,

Unfortunately, uneducated, weirds, criminals, "especials", and other self-injurious and self-restraint politically-corrected 'alternatives' deliberately use twisted words with 'intra-meaning',r cant expressions, exclusive argotic rights and sheer casuistry--imposing "their rules".

Shortly, if soy products is a substitute to meat, they sell it at the corresponding department, it's but logic, not insult, because the result matters, not mere origin. Furthermore, most "non-vegans" (majority) don't walk to diet/vegan depts. Why, I usually don't sob my socks off seeing or eating vegetable or fish cutlets, yet I laugh at adulterated meaning)
.

By the way, do you respect the potato and disdain the lion? And how about the dead?
Death kills all rather respectfully, you know... Even words and meaning.

[Edited at 2018-04-23 13:40 GMT]


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