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Thread poster: Harry Hermawan

Harry Hermawan  Identity Verified
Indonesia
Local time: 16:41
Member (2005)
English to Indonesian
Dec 23, 2005

His suggestion to restore the original integrity of the church is an acceptable solution as long as the /hard structural analysis/ concludes the structure is reasonably safe from future collapse.

Question:
/hard structural analysis/

Can the word /hard/ here from the sentence means that the structural analysis was 'difficult'?


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RHELLER
United States
Local time: 02:41
French to English
+ ...
3 corrections IMO Dec 23, 2005

Can the word /hard/ here from the sentence means that the structural analysis was 'difficult'?
-----------------------------

3 problems here

1) HARD is ambiguous - could mean
a) a "tough" analysis - like taking a hard look, being very discriminating. (my opinion)

b) structural analysis of the foundation and other cement, steel elements (as opposed to wall partitions and ceilings which are more accessible, softer, easier) - this is a leap

2) word missing: as long as the hard, structural analysis concludes THAT the structure is reasonably safe

3) "safe from future collapse" is not really correct; better to say "no risk of a future collapse exists"
or "there is no risk of a future collapse"


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Spencer Allman
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:41
Finnish to English
does not mean difficult Dec 23, 2005

hard here means close or uncompromising, in my opinion

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Stephen Rifkind  Identity Verified
Israel
Local time: 11:41
Member (2004)
French to English
+ ...
"hard facts" Dec 23, 2005

I see the meaning as in the above phrase: hard = objective

Stephen Rifkind


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Tim Drayton  Identity Verified
Cyprus
Local time: 11:41
Turkish to English
+ ...
analysis of the hard structure? Dec 23, 2005

Hi,
I must confess straight away that I know nothing about engineering, but I just wonder if the 'hard' here could refer to the 'hard structure' of the building?


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Elvira Stoianov  Identity Verified
Luxembourg
Local time: 10:41
German to Romanian
+ ...
this is a KudoZ question Dec 23, 2005

You should post this as a KudoZ question, which is dedicated to terminology help. You also have the possibility to ask under English-English, if you only need the meaning.

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Oliver Walter  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:41
Member (2005)
German to English
+ ...
Which context Dec 23, 2005

Elvira Stoianov wrote:

You should post this as a KudoZ question, which is dedicated to terminology help. You also have the possibility to ask under English-English, if you only need the meaning.

And if you do that, make it clear whether "the church" is a building or an institution, or whether you have no other means of knowing this.
Oliver


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Harry Hermawan  Identity Verified
Indonesia
Local time: 16:41
Member (2005)
English to Indonesian
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you for the suggestion Dec 24, 2005

Elvira Stoianov wrote:

You should post this as a KudoZ question, which is dedicated to terminology help. You also have the possibility to ask under English-English, if you only need the meaning.


Well it did came from KudoZ but not english-english, I just wanted what others think about it. And I just wanted a bigger forum to accomodate since it can be viewed in a linguistics point of view. Again thanks. To all of you.

And, Happy Holidays to all.


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Richard Creech  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:41
French to English
+ ...
"Hard" as an informal term Dec 24, 2005

"Hard" is not genarlly used in formal, or legally-operative documents, to mean "difficult." That is a colloquial or informal use.

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MarkS
English to French
+ ...
This is where surveying knowledge may come in handy Dec 27, 2005

As a failed-linguist-turned-quantity-surveyor I often hear about the 'hard structure' and the 'services' in a building (from, surprisingly, building surveyors). As your quote doesn't actually mention the age of the church we are assuming a mediaeval structure, yet a more modern church will have the hard structure (bricks and mortar) and services (gas, white goods etc).

A 'hard structural analysis' may actually refer to an analysis of the hard structure, as opposed to the services. As the quote refers to the integrity of the church building, I feel this is the most probable meaning BUT 'hard structural analysis' is quite bad English if this is the case - it is not the 'hard analysis' of the structure.


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Harry Hermawan  Identity Verified
Indonesia
Local time: 16:41
Member (2005)
English to Indonesian
TOPIC STARTER
Indeed... Dec 28, 2005

MarkS wrote:

As a failed-linguist-turned-quantity-surveyor


..but I sense that you are still happy and feel comfortable by participating.

I often hear about the 'hard structure' and the 'services' in a building (from, surprisingly, building surveyors). As your quote doesn't actually mention the age of the church we are assuming a mediaeval structure, yet a more modern church will have the hard structure (bricks and mortar) and services (gas, white goods etc).

A 'hard structural analysis' may actually refer to an analysis of the hard structure, as opposed to the services. As the quote refers to the integrity of the church building, I feel this is the most probable meaning BUT 'hard structural analysis' is quite bad English if this is the case - it is not the 'hard analysis' of the structure.


..yes, I guess translating depends largely on the source text being decent which in turn may result in a good/ bad translation.

thank you MarkS. And all of you.


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Last Hermit
Local time: 17:41
Chinese to English
+ ...
IMHO Dec 28, 2005

The author appears to imply that the job is demanding and requires very detailed if hard facts, connoting that the church is not considered safe enough. The noun group 'an acceptable solution as long as...' also suggests the church is weak in strucure and needs to be pulled down, which is what the author wants to see.

The following is quoted from New Oxford Dictionary of English for your information:

4. (of information) reliable, especially because based on something true or substantiated: hard facts about the underclass are maddeningly elusive.

 • (of a subject of study) dealing with precise and verifiable facts: efforts to turn psychology into hard science. • (of science fiction) scientifically accurate rather than purely fantastic or whimsical: a hard SF novel.

"hard adjective"  The Oxford Dictionary of English (revised edition). Ed. Catherine Soanes and Angus Stevenson. Oxford University Press, 2005. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press.  Mr Last Hermit.  28 December 2005  http://www.oxford-dictionaries.co.uk/entry?entry=t140.e34054


Harry Djuhari wrote:

His suggestion to restore the original integrity of the church is an acceptable solution as long as the /hard structural analysis/ concludes the structure is reasonably safe from future collapse.

Question:
/hard structural analysis/

Can the word /hard/ here from the sentence means that the structural analysis was 'difficult'?


[Edited at 2005-12-28 09:49]


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juvera  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:41
English to Hungarian
+ ...
hard facts Dec 28, 2005

[quote]Last Hermit wrote:

"reliable, especially because based on something true or substantiated: hard facts"

[quote]Harry Djuhari wrote:

"His suggestion to restore the original integrity of the church is an acceptable solution as long as the /hard structural analysis/ concludes the structure is reasonably safe from future collapse."

The structure is structure. We (architects) don't say "hard structure" or other. To explain that would take a long time, so I stop here.
On the other hand it is perfectly correct to say: "..the structure is reasonably safe from future collapse."

The essence of it is that: ...the restoration of the church is an acceptable solution as long as the /structural analysis 'based on facts, reliably' / concludes the structure is reasonably safe from future collapse.

But you don't need to say 'based on facts' because the 'hard structural analysis' gives you that. The 'reliably' is more useful.

You can say: ..the restoration of the church is an acceptable solution as long as the structural analysis reliably concludes the structure is reasonably safe from future collapse.

This is simpler, more understandable.
Good luck.


[Edited at 2005-12-28 13:43]


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