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Is it possible for an adult to learn a new language perfectly?
Thread poster: Balasubramaniam L.
Claudia Krysztofiak
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This is a little medieval :-) Oct 29, 2006

Balasubramaniam wrote:

The number of brain cells you have at the age of five is more than the number of brain cells you have at 20, which is more than what you have at 40, which is more than... and so on.

...

Talking in terms of hardware, the wiring of the brain is completed in the initial years of life, and it is not possible to alter it in later life to any substantial level.


Maybe you should read some more recent books about this topic, because this is not what scientists know about the brain, today. It was a quite mechanistic approach from the days people still believed the brain was some kind of machine with simple input and output procedures and only limited storage capacity.

Today, scientists have learned that the brain changes your whole life through and, to put it very simple: like a muscle has to be trained regularly to keep its abilities, the same is true for the brain. This is very good news for translators, for we are using ours constantly (we should!)

New synaptic connections are built and existing ones that are no longer used are deleted, so you also can unlearn things. There is just so much more to do when you are still young and the brain is still in the process of forming its basic functions so learning is so much easier and natural. But language is just a very small part of what we learn and you can very well learn languages later in life. It is a question of necessity. If you are surrounded by native speakers of a different language and have a good ear, the willingness to immerse yourself in this new language just like a child who learns out of the necessity to communicate then I am sure you can learn to speak and write this language to a degree many native speakers show.
Everything else is just a question of how far you are willing to take the term "perfect knowledge of a language".

I have translated a lot of stuff about brain development in children and brain damages in older people that force them to adapt to a completely new situation. It is really fascinating what a great, flexible tool our brain is. Just keep using it and it will remain this way.

Some keywords to start further research on this topic: Cognitive Neuroscience, Neurolinguistics, Neuroplasticity.

Have fun!


 
Ruxi
Ruxi
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Yes Oct 29, 2006

I have learned two languages as an adult, elder than 30 years old.
One language (Italian) I am improving every day, because I use it in family and with friends.
The second one (French) I did/do not use and so I can no practice and improve.
It is a little difficult for me to use a fourth language very much (as I am now currently using 3 foreign languages and my mother language too), so that I can practice it and improve it in order to be able to translate.
Still I could tr
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I have learned two languages as an adult, elder than 30 years old.
One language (Italian) I am improving every day, because I use it in family and with friends.
The second one (French) I did/do not use and so I can no practice and improve.
It is a little difficult for me to use a fourth language very much (as I am now currently using 3 foreign languages and my mother language too), so that I can practice it and improve it in order to be able to translate.
Still I could translate from both languages, texts with a reasonable degree of difficulty.
I wonder if would succeed now, at may age to learn another language I like (Greek), but first of all I would be happy to improve the languages I already started.
It is a matter of talent first of all.
There are persons who can not a foreign language at no age. They simply can not.
And there are persons who are able to learn language at every age and very rapid and well.
The problems though are:
1. For translation jobs you will never be considered native speaker, whatever the age and the level of your skills would be. It is, I think, an unwritten law of the translation field.
2. You must always practice a language in order to know it very well and use it for translation matters and I don't image who can use so many languages daily and also know specific terms from a field you work in.
3. Yes, it seems to be easier to learn a language in child's age, from some points of view.
4. It is also matters the way you learn the language, wether with a teacher, or alone.
And again I am asking where are the age and skill limits to a native speaker and who puts them, who defines them?
And also:
Every person has is own native capacity and talent which are very important: one can paint, the other one has talent in sport, or music, or languages, or technics.
One can never learn a language, but very easy learn to play an instrument, or paint, or computer, math. aso.
I think there are senses and regions of the brain used for every activity and which can be more or less developed.
E.g for languages one has to have a good musical hearing also.
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Claudia Krysztofiak
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Critical periods are one theory among many Oct 29, 2006

James Davis wrote:
Do you ever think you will be better at a second language than you are at your first?


I know a man who moved to Sweden at the age of fourtyeight and has been living there for 23 years now closely surrounded by native speakers. He is far better at Swedish now than at his native language.
But I guess that was not what you wanted to point out.


Anyway, Balasubramaniam I like most people here at Proz know two second languages pretty "damn" well, as Sophia put it, but I came to a point in life, where I knew I would never come near that level of perfection I have in my native tongue and I think this is what you are alluding to.


But maybe this is also a question of necessity. You do not have to, so why should you? Children have the necessity to express themselves to communicate. You can always fall back to your native tongue.
And if children are not trained properly, they also may not master a language very well. If someone is taught a language 18 years under the same circumstances a child is, this person might very well be able to compete with any native speaker.
Some of the people I met who grew up with two languages do not feel at home in any of them like a native speaker would.
Let's keep in mind: perfect is a very vague definition for a level of ability; and the circumstances under which adults learn a language and the effort they put into it are not at all comparabe.


A long time ago I took a degree in experimental psychology. I can still remember some of it. The principles. There is a theory in biology and psychology that if an organism (a plant, animal or human being) has not accomplished something by a certain time as it is growing, then after that period it will be too late. Usually there is a certain period before which and after which it is not possible.


As far as I know this is just one theory among so many others and there are as many proofs for it as against it. There were scientists who defined developmental phases in children's lives depending on age - only to find out later that not one child is like another and that such theories may be helpful for general orientation, but not for individual cases.

As a theory, its difficult to test on humans. Take vision for example. The experiment would be to take two groups blindfold one group from birth to the age of ten... No you can't do that. So we don't know if there is a critical period for vision.


Actually, neuroscientists do take a close look at children who are born blind and later gain sight and receive their knowledge from these cases. A lot of knowledge about brain functions was derived from working with people with brain damage due to illness or accidents.

Personally, I was half blind for the first year of my life (I can see well now) and then I had an operation and had glasses strapped on me. As a consequence, my handwriting is still a disaster even today and I was the last in my age group to catch a ball. There was probably something I missed in that first year, after which it was too late.


I do not wish to offend you in any way. But there are other people who never had sight problems and still have a bad hand writing and hardly ever learn to catch a ball. So there may also be other reasons for this.

Most psychologists agree I think that children learn language in a different way to adults. It's obvious if you think about it. ... Children pick it up intuitively, not logically.


Yes!

Then, think about it. I'm intelligent. I'm good at languages. It took me five years to learn to speak English as a child, listening to it for eighteen months and speaking it for another three and a half. I went to school and within a year, I could write elementary texts and within 12 years I could write at university level. So I reached the level of "highly educated native speaker - perfect - in 18 years".
I've now been living in a foreign country (Italy) for much longer. I'm "pretty damn good" at Italian, but I still make mistakes and there particular mistakes.
If you teach a language as a foreign language, you soon find yourself explaining that there are two types of mistake. The type that a native speaker might make, "He is more quick" (the sort of thing US news reader might even say) for example instead of "He is quicker" and another type which a native speaker would never say, "He quixk is".


But you never put as much effort into this as you did with your native language. And I bet there are many Italians who make mistakes, too. Just because you make other mistakes due to your different learning background does not mean you are not as good at their language as they are. Or do you think you also have to copy the native mistakes?


It's a fascinating subject, but the answer must be No.
Jim


I still doubt that, though I must admit, I also think it would be very hard work and would take quite some time.

[Bearbeitet am 2006-10-29 15:26]


 
João Espinho (X)
João Espinho (X)
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Sure, with time Oct 29, 2006

Well, first of all, backgrounds do matter. As Natural from Portugal, and having Spanish TV at home since birth, I do master these two Languages. Later (I was arround 22 already) I went to Kosovo. There I had to start speaking Italian. Not that difficult, based on the Latin background, but still, learning a new language, which i was mastering in near (almost) perfection. Also during my stay there, I learned a bit of Albanian (just basic words, but enough to have a small conversation, or ask a cof... See more
Well, first of all, backgrounds do matter. As Natural from Portugal, and having Spanish TV at home since birth, I do master these two Languages. Later (I was arround 22 already) I went to Kosovo. There I had to start speaking Italian. Not that difficult, based on the Latin background, but still, learning a new language, which i was mastering in near (almost) perfection. Also during my stay there, I learned a bit of Albanian (just basic words, but enough to have a small conversation, or ask a coffee in the bar).
Now, I am facing my biggest challenge. I moved to Estonia, and I am NOT studying the language. Note that I had no background on Ugro-finnic languages. I'm sorry to say I am too lazy to grab a book or a grammar. But, living since May here, I may say I can do my own... I gather that, continuing like this (not studying), maybe 1 more year and I will be speaking and writing propperly.

Now comes the tricky part... I still can speack some italian and spanish, because I have continued speaking these languages. I also studyed French in school, but after that, I barely spoke the language. because of this lack of practice, i would have a lot of difficulties having a conversation in french and it would be impossible any kind of communication in albanian.

My point... Yes, it is possible to learn a new language (easier if you have background, but not impossible if you don't) but you need to continue applying this language, otherwise its an effort in vain.
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Kevin Kelly
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Yes and no... Oct 29, 2006

The fact is that no one -- child or adult -- ever learns any language "perfectly." The degree of proficiency achievable in any language depends on many, many factors, only one of which is growing up immersed in the native language and culture.

Statistically, it's probably quite rare for an adult to achieve proficiency in an acquired language that is fully equivalent to a native speaker. But is it possible?

Of course it is.


 
Marie-Hélène Hayles
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Native standard: possible for very few people. Near native: possible for most people. Oct 29, 2006

I moved to Italy aged 30 not speaking a word of the language (apart from "cappuccino" and "spaghetti", of course!) and within 3 or 4 years picked it up to high standard. Now, after a little over seven years, I'd say I'm near native - at least in spoken Italian (I've never had much practice in written Italian and while I'm generally grammatically correct, I sometimes have difficulty explaining complex concepts and can only write in a relatively informal style).
As far as my spoken Italian
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I moved to Italy aged 30 not speaking a word of the language (apart from "cappuccino" and "spaghetti", of course!) and within 3 or 4 years picked it up to high standard. Now, after a little over seven years, I'd say I'm near native - at least in spoken Italian (I've never had much practice in written Italian and while I'm generally grammatically correct, I sometimes have difficulty explaining complex concepts and can only write in a relatively informal style).
As far as my spoken Italian is concerned, I'm now at the stage where a Roman takes a couple of minutes to realise I'm not Italian, whereas for non-Romans it can take up to 15 or 20 minutes. Will I ever speak like a native? I doubt it... Near native is as good as it gets for mere mortals.

However, I do know two Italians (with Italian parents) who could fool native English speakers into thinking they were English... one of whom has never even lived outside of Italy. Natural talent, I guess.

[Edited at 2006-10-29 20:40]
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l_pon (X)
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an adult can learn a new language but not perfectly Oct 29, 2006

An adult can never learn a foreign language perfectly. The main problem seems to be the acquisition of the pronunciation of that particular foreign language. I do not want to state that an adult wouldn't be able to learn to «produce» and «understand» the sentences of a foreign language. That is possible if you work/learn hard. But the phonetic-phonological level is something we can acquire before a certain age, say the age of 15 – roughly speaking, of course.
All in all, an adult ca
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An adult can never learn a foreign language perfectly. The main problem seems to be the acquisition of the pronunciation of that particular foreign language. I do not want to state that an adult wouldn't be able to learn to «produce» and «understand» the sentences of a foreign language. That is possible if you work/learn hard. But the phonetic-phonological level is something we can acquire before a certain age, say the age of 15 – roughly speaking, of course.
All in all, an adult can learn a new language, but not perfectly.
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Marie-Hélène Hayles
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beg to disagree... Oct 29, 2006

Leonard Pon wrote:

An adult can never learn a foreign language perfectly. The main problem seems to be the acquisition of the pronunciation of that particular foreign language. I do not want to state that an adult wouldn't be able to learn to «produce» and «understand» the sentences of a foreign language. That is possible if you work/learn hard. But the phonetic-phonological level is something we can acquire before a certain age, say the age of 15 – roughly speaking, of course.
All in all, an adult can learn a new language, but not perfectly.




One of the people I mentioned above speaks English with a strong Yorkshire accent!

I do agree that it's very, very rare, as I also said above.


 
Claudia Krysztofiak
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What is this assumption based upon? Oct 29, 2006

Leonard Pon wrote:
But the phonetic-phonological level is something we can acquire before a certain age, say the age of 15 – roughly speaking, of course.
All in all, an adult can learn a new language, but not perfectly.



Say 11.

Is this your opinion or do you have proof of this?

When I started to study Spanish there were people who discouraged me in the same way, who claimed to know that some people are able to roll the "r" and thus produce the Spanish sound and others are not and that it was a question of genetics. This was of course complete nonsense and by training very hard I finally learned it.

It just takes a lot of effort, as already stated before.

There are people who claim that you cannot throw a needle through reinforced glass with your bare hands. The human mind and body are capable of very extraordinary things - it just takes lots and lots of practice.

Cannot is just a lame excuse for not trying hard enough.


 
Maria Karra
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research/proof/opinions Oct 29, 2006

I've done quite a bit of research on this subject, and my conclusion (based on several interviews and case studies conducted by myself, as well as studies of prior research) is that it is possible to achieve native competency in syntax, vocabulary, and grammar (assuming one is motivated enough and the social setting is favorable), but it is not possible to achieve native-like pronunciation if you learn the language after the "critical period". To use Claudia's example, yes, with practice you ca... See more
I've done quite a bit of research on this subject, and my conclusion (based on several interviews and case studies conducted by myself, as well as studies of prior research) is that it is possible to achieve native competency in syntax, vocabulary, and grammar (assuming one is motivated enough and the social setting is favorable), but it is not possible to achieve native-like pronunciation if you learn the language after the "critical period". To use Claudia's example, yes, with practice you can learn to roll the "rr" in Spanish, and it is possible to pronounce individual words with a native-like accent; what is difficult is to roll the rr always, and in the same way, no matter how fast you speak, and without having to think about it.

Here's an excerpt from my textbook "The Study of Second Language Acquisition" by Rod Ellis:
"Like many other issues, the role of age in L2 (second language) acquisition is controversial. The controversy centres around whether there is a critical period for L2 acquisition and, if so, when it ends. Long (1990) has presented evidence to suggest that the acquisition of a native-like accent is not possible by learners who begin learning after 6 years of age. He also argues that it is very difficult for learners who begin at puberty to acquire native-like grammatical competence. However, Scovel (1988) has presented somewhat different evidence to argue that the critical period for a native-like pronunciation is around 12 years old. He claims that the evidence in favour of a critical period for grammar is equivocal ('a potential maybe to a probable no'). There is general agreement, however, that older learners enjoy an initial advantage in rate of acquisition."

It seems to me that most linguists believe that there is a critical period (myself included). What they don't always agree on is what this critical period is. Claude Hagège claims it is 11 years (in his book "L'enfant aux deux langues" which I read 5-6 years ago). Rod Ellis, in the book I mentioned above, talks about the theories of other linguists such as Penfield and Roberts who believe that "the optimum period for language acquisition falls within the first ten years of life, when the brain retains its plasticity". Ellis writes that "initially, this period was equated with the period taken for lateralization of the language function to the left side of the brain to be completed. Work on children and adults who had experienced brain injuries or operations indicated that damage to the left hemisphere caused few speech disorders and was rapidly repaired in the case of children but not adults. Although subsequent work has challenged the precise age when lateralization takes place, resulting in doubts about the neurological basis of the critical period hypothesis, the age question has continued to attract the attention of researchers."

Maria
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Balasubramaniam L.
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More evidence Oct 30, 2006

In further corroboration of what Maria Karra has already said in her post I reproduce this extract from the study material supplied by Indira Gandhi Open University to MA students in English on the subect of linguistics.
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Learning factors in second language acquisition

Age

Most people, including some psychologists and linguists believe that children are better at learning second languages than adults. Penfield (1953) argued that the human brain lo
... See more
In further corroboration of what Maria Karra has already said in her post I reproduce this extract from the study material supplied by Indira Gandhi Open University to MA students in English on the subect of linguistics.
---

Learning factors in second language acquisition

Age

Most people, including some psychologists and linguists believe that children are better at learning second languages than adults. Penfield (1953) argued that the human brain loses its plasticity after puberty. He stressed that children relearn their language after injury or disease.

Lenneberg (1968) suggested that laterlization made the brain functions become specialized in the early teens. He suggests that there is a critical period (between two years and puberty) for effective language acquisition. After that, while it is possible to acquire another language, it is done in a physiologically different and more difficult way. Another explanation for this apparent decline in adult language acquisition was that the adult's abstract mode of thinking interfered with natural language learning process. Yet another explanation for the decline in adult learners is that they generally do not have the same peer group pressure, the intensity of motivation and attitude towards the target language and culture that children have. Adults are also much less willing to give up their well-established social identity.

Selger (1978) points out that there is much evidence to show that children aquire the phonological system of another language much better than adults, and proposes the concept of 'multiple critical periods' correlating with localization and gradual loss of plasticity. It appears that language acquisition abilities are not lost at once. There is only a gradual reduction of such abilities.

Whitaker (1978) points out that though there is evidence that under unusual circumstances langauge acquisition may occur after puberty, possibly through the right hemisphere of the brain, it is neither as rapid nor as successful as normal acquisition.
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Balasubramaniam L.
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Defining "perfect" Oct 30, 2006

suvasree wrote:

I think the critical word in your statement is "perfectly". Would you clarify what you mean by that? I am a Bengali and Rabindranath Tagore was a Bengali. I hope you would never say that I know Bengali as "pefectly" as Tagore did! You can extend this analogy and apply it to other languages. Do you think every Englishman is a Shakespeare or a John Keats?



Dear suvasree,

As I have already clarified, in the original post, by perfect I mean native-like competency of the languge in all departments of it, syntax, vocabulary, phonetics and grammar rules.

That is a tall order, and according to me impossible to achieve when learning a new language as an adult.

I will take two or three examples which since you are also from India will be able to follow.

The first is Mark Tully, BBC correspondant in India for more than three decades, who speaks Hindi fluently and is now settled in Delhi as a naturalised Indian.

Despite having been in India for nearly four decades and despite being in the profession of radio and tv broadcasting as a foreign correspondent of a prestigious tv company - which should account for enough motivation and resources for learning Hindi - he still speaks Hindi like any foreigner would; the moment he opens his mouth in Hindi, he is an immediate give away that he is not a native speaker of Hindi.

Take the second case of Tom Alter, a British actor who frequently appears in Hindi films in the role of British officers and now also in TV serials. In his case, he has made a laudable effort to perfect his diction of Hindi, and in many cases he only has to read out a pre-ready script in Hindi. Even then if you hear him long enough you can catch rare turns of sound which are un-Hindi-like and you can spot that his command over Hindi is not quite native-like. Mind you, I am not talking here of the dialogues where he is supposed to speak faulty Hindi as British officers (in the imagination of Hindi filmmakers) but chaste Hindi in the roles of Indian characters.

The third example are the Britishers themselves who came to India during colonial times. Even in the 150 years that they stayed here, not many of them could acquire perfect command over Indian languages. The ICS officers, the judges, the businessmen, the Viceroys, their retinue, none of them could learn to speak any Indian language to any appreciable level of competency. Who can say they did not have the motivation or the money, they were here to rule the most lucrative possession of the Raj.

It is my belief that the British promoted English in India mainly because they soon realized that it was impossible for them to learn Indian languages unless they settled in India and brought up their children here.

Another example is the large number of South Indian filmstars who have moved to Hindi cinema lured by the money and fame that Hindi cinema can bring them. The list is long, Rajnikanth, Mammooty, Kamalahasan, among male stars, and Hema Malini, Jaya Prada and Sridevi to name a few female stars. They all have atrocious diction in Hindi, and most of them require their dialogues to be dubbed by professional voice artists. Why do you think they couldn't learn proper Hindi? Did they lack money, or did they lack motivation? None of these, I am afraid; they could not because it is impossible.

[Edited at 2006-10-30 05:43]


 
Anna Strowe
Anna Strowe
Local time: 00:20
Italian to English
Related question Oct 30, 2006

"Perfection" as defined by the language abilities of a native speaker is still incredibly vague. As someone else has already pointed out, there can be enormous variation in language ability between native speakers of the same language. My English is not the same as that of my housemate's English. We're both native speakers. Of course, there are still mistakes that I would identify as being more likely for a non-native speaker than for a native speaker, but there are also mistakes that native... See more
"Perfection" as defined by the language abilities of a native speaker is still incredibly vague. As someone else has already pointed out, there can be enormous variation in language ability between native speakers of the same language. My English is not the same as that of my housemate's English. We're both native speakers. Of course, there are still mistakes that I would identify as being more likely for a non-native speaker than for a native speaker, but there are also mistakes that native speakers make that no educated non-native who had spent any effort in learning the language would make. (The obvious tangent to this is the discussion about how usage and ab-usage changes language and causes it to evolve; the mistakes of native speakers will more likely become standard than the mistakes of non-native speakers.)

How much assimilation is perfection? Most of the native (American) English speakers I know have forgotten what the subjunctive is for in English. Most of the non-native speakers I know have not. If they aspire to "perfection", should they forget about it as well? Perhaps throw in some double negatives and say "like" and "ya know" more often.

I'm being a bit facetious, but the point is this: we can probably all identify non-native speakers who excel as well as those whose difficulty with the languages is particularly noticeable, but "perfection" is a vague ideal even for native speakers. I know many non-native speakers who speak and write better English than native speakers.

Anna
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James (Jim) Davis
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Speaking and writing Oct 30, 2006

Marie-Helene Hayles wrote:
However, I do know two Italians (with Italian parents) who could fool native English speakers into thinking they were English... one of whom has never even lived outside of Italy. Natural talent, I guess.

[Edited at 2006-10-29 20:40]


Accent can easily deceive. I know a person with Italian parents, who was brought up in Grays in England and went to a French school. Speaking to him, he has a fabulous accent with a slight tint of the East/South London in it. However, when he writes, Oh dear, what a disaster.

[Edited at 2006-10-30 09:38]


 
James (Jim) Davis
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research/proof/opinions Oct 30, 2006

Maria,
Thank you for your review of the literature. Very interesting.
Accent
The acquisition of a native accent, will depend on two things: acuity of hearing (declines with age) and the suppleness of the vocal chords and relative (declines with age). I learnt French at school and spent time in France as a teenager. Now my accent is so good, when I first open my mouth. French people think I speak fluent French, but I'm so out of practice (only school French anyway) I can't even
... See more
Maria,
Thank you for your review of the literature. Very interesting.
Accent
The acquisition of a native accent, will depend on two things: acuity of hearing (declines with age) and the suppleness of the vocal chords and relative (declines with age). I learnt French at school and spent time in France as a teenager. Now my accent is so good, when I first open my mouth. French people think I speak fluent French, but I'm so out of practice (only school French anyway) I can't even make a conversation. I came to live in Italy and started to learn Italian at the age of 28 (still hear 25 years later) and people still easily notice my accent. So I record the newscaster, I repeat after the newscaster and record. I listen and I can't hear the difference. I have a lousy ear, but clearly I can't improve my accent if my ear won't give be the essential feedback.
Grammar
My evidence is of the "clinical" type. Over many years teaching English as a foreign language in Italy to individuals and small groups of adults (some teenagers), I often find myself saying,"That is wrong, but it is a mistake a native speaker would make", - e.g. 'more quick' instead of quicker. And at other times "That is a bad mistake, a native speaker would never say that", - e.g. "I well speak English". This second type of mistake (Heinrich Pesch in this forum speaks of 'small clues in speech and language use', arises very clearly from the method employed by the adult learner, which is that of translating from their native language, instead of relying on observation and trial and error and maybe some inbuilt mechanisms which perhaps a child has and an adult has lost.

To discover whether, there is a critical period for grammar, well... When I came to Italy, I should have tried to learn the way a child learns. You spend the first eighteen months just listening and then you start tentatively to try and speak. You do this as a full time job. The experiment would have been nice, but, I didn't have time. I, like all adults I know, use translation and grammar books. I made mistakes, which became habits, which are now not unlearnable.

I have seen this many, many times with advanced students. They are fluent, but make a few grammatical mistakes. I point out their grammatical mistakes. We do some exercises. They understand the problem and correct it. Then in free conversation five minutes later, they make the same mistake again (usually its word order, not always), but after 5-10 years or longer of unknowingly making a mistake, how can they lose the habit?

Claudia, my psychology is a little rusty. The classic for critical periods is Lorenz (nobel for animal behaviour - ethology) who discovered "imprinting". I was just trying to explain the concept of critical periods, not to say, there definitely is or isn't a specific critical period for a given ability. Piaget pointed to many, but experimental evidence revealed a much more complex picture.
Jim
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