| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | Macedonian vs Macedonian conceptual conflict Thread poster: Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ
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| I can't believe it | Sep 8, 2007 |
Victor Dewsbery wrote:
1. I had never heard of the acronym "FYROM" before this thread
Really? Do you ever watch news or sports on televison?
| | | | Nick Lingris 
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:11
Member (2006)
English to Greek
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| Respect to be shown in all directions, please | Sep 8, 2007 |
I’m sorry, Victor, but we cannot ignore here the fact that there is an issue between the two countries. When there is an issue between two countries (which I have tried to explain as briefly as possible, but this is a geopolitical problem that I cannot go into in too much detail here), an issue which is recognised as such by international organizations, who then have to take provisional measures in these respects, we too have to take provisional measures here.
It is inappropriate ... See more I’m sorry, Victor, but we cannot ignore here the fact that there is an issue between the two countries. When there is an issue between two countries (which I have tried to explain as briefly as possible, but this is a geopolitical problem that I cannot go into in too much detail here), an issue which is recognised as such by international organizations, who then have to take provisional measures in these respects, we too have to take provisional measures here.
It is inappropriate to suggest that we are trying to legislate the country of Macedonia or the name Macedonian out of existence. We are trying to show respect for the legitimate concerns of the people of the ‘Republic of Macedonia’ AS WELL AS of ALL the people of Macedonia. The very fact that you had never heard of the acronym FYROM before this thread does not make you a neutral outsider —only one who is ignorant of the issues involved. ▲ Collapse
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Nick Lingris wrote:
The very fact that you had never heard of the acronym FYROM before this thread does not make you a neutral outsider —only one who is ignorant of the issues involved.
| | | | | ISO or Politics or Discriminations | Sep 8, 2007 |
Dear Victor,
Sorry Maria, I (as a neutral outsider) disagree with both of these points.
1. I had never heard of the acronym "FYROM" before this thread, and I would have had no idea where or what it is. Your suggestion is tantamount to legislating the country of Macedonia out of existence. To make any headway on this, the Greek contributors to this forum need to show some respect for the legitimate concerns of the people of the Republic of Macedonia.
I am sorry but this is not an argument and apart from that, it is not Maria's suggestion, it is the suggestion of ISO, UN, EU e.t.c. You seem to ignore that the problem with the name is still a matter under negotiations. The name of the country is still to be decided. The official name is F.Y.R.O.M.
Enrique wrote:
ProZ.com has the policy of using the ISO languages (the one with 3 letter codes) and so, in case a forum is created for this language, it will be named after the corresponding ISO name "Macedonian".
We do not plan to depart from this the ISO policy, as it provides clear guidelines along widely accepted international standards.
Either we follow the ISO either we do not. We cannot follow it partially whenever fits us best. Otherwise we have serious reasons to believe that ProZ.com is not an independent community.
2. The note is unnecessary - this would also be tantamount to legislating the name "Macedonian" out of existence. If the ISO nomenclature changes, then of course this would justify changing it on ProZ. But requiring one (and only one) of the world's language communities to include an enormously verbose disclaimer to its own name is completely out of proportion.
The note is necessary because the European Union finds it necessary. Please have a look at the link I provided http://publications.europa.eu/code/pdf/370000en.htm. There is no politics there, it refers only to the Countries, languages and currencies.
Since ProZ does use ISO and does not plan to depart from it I do not see any reason to continue this. The name of the country and its language should be as per ISO.
As Said said:
I do not think that it is fair to hold ProZ.com responsible for International Standardization, but I am also sure that if ISO renames the denomination Macedonian into another one, ProZ.com will stand by it, which in return certainly could displease the FYROM community, but again, ProZ.com cannot be responsible for it, regardless which community is displeased.
Kind regards to all,
Dimitra
[Edited at 2007-09-08 15:11]
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Marc P (X)
Local time: 04:11
German to English
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| For clarification | Sep 8, 2007 |
1. Elena "Because it seems you have already departed from the policy by "designating".... "Macedonia" as the country name.
Enrique did not, as is alleged here, designate "Macedonia" as the country name; he referred only to the language.
2. Dimitra: "And since we are talking about standars and the same, which standard has been followed to use only "Macedonia" instead of FYROM - Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, while everyone here (FYROM linguists, Greeks and lingui... See more 1. Elena "Because it seems you have already departed from the policy by "designating".... "Macedonia" as the country name.
Enrique did not, as is alleged here, designate "Macedonia" as the country name; he referred only to the language.
2. Dimitra: "And since we are talking about standars and the same, which standard has been followed to use only "Macedonia" instead of FYROM - Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, while everyone here (FYROM linguists, Greeks and linguists from other countries) know and accept that this is the official name and not only "Macedonia"?"
Elena: The official ISO entry is: "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"
On the contrary, everyone here does NOT "know and accept that this is the official name". This has been asserted repeatedly by our Greek colleagues, but it is simply not correct. The official name of the country which you refer to as "FYROM" is "Република Македонија", or in Latin script "Republika Makedonija". The Republic of Macedonia is a sovereign state and is entitled to define its own designation for itself. That designation is clearly the official one. Other countries and bodies are at liberty to apply different names, but they are "official" only within their own jurisdictions and contexts, if at all. The use of "FYROM" by (for example) the UN does not constitute an official name: it is a temporary reference used for convenience until the naming dispute has been resolved. ISO is a standards body and not an official authority, and unless transposed into national legislation its rulings are not binding upon anyone. To the best of my knowledge, the rest of the world has no problem accepting "Macedonia" and "Macedonian" for FYROM and the language spoken in it respectively, and where "FYROM" has been adopted, this has happened solely in response to Greek demands and threats.
3. Much has been said about Greek sensibilities, but given that Macedonia chose to gain independence from Yugoslavia, the term "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is clearly offensive to Macedonians. The use of "FYROM" is directly equivalent to referring to Cyprus as "FBCOC" (Former British Colony of Cyprus).
All three above points specifically concern the name of the country, not that of the language, which is the point being discussed here.
4. ISO 639-1 governing language codes refers to Macedonian in English as "Macedonian". It contains no reference to the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia or to FYROM. ISO 639-1 is acessible on the ISO website here:
isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink.exe/6423635/ISO_639-1.pdf?func=doc.Fetch&nodeid=6423635
5. There is no other Macedonian language beside that used in the Republic of Macedonia. According to one Greek contributor to this discussion, there is not even a Macedonian Greek dialect. There is therefore no potential for disagreement or confusion regarding what the term "Macedonian language" could refer to, and this cannot therefore be considered a valid reason for disallowing "Macedonian" as a language name on ProZ.
6. The aspect which has been seriously overlooked here, and which in my opinion is the crucial one, is that of self-determination. The issue is being presented as a difference of opinion between the Greek and Macedonian camps, for which a compromise should be sought. However, what a country calls itself, and how members of a language community refer to their own language, is their own business, and not a matter of compromise. An attempt to dictate to another country or language community what it should call itself is unwarranted interference.
Examples of similar issues in other parts of the world:
"Ireland" is the official name of the Republic of Ireland, but is also the term used for the island of Ireland. The two are not geographically congruent, which can cause confusion. Over the years, various labels have been used for the state to avoid this confusion (and for other reasons), such as Southern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland, the Irish name Éire (even in English), or even the 26 counties. Naming remains contentious even today, but to my knowledge there has never been any question of the Irish being prohibited from calling their state "Ireland".
The Republic of Moldova is not geographically congruent with the region of Moldavia. Conveniently, some languages have slightly different forms for the two (English Moldova/Moldovia, German Moldowa/Moldawien, etc.), but this is not the case in all languages. There has been some debate over whether Moldavian should be considered a separate language from Romanian, but again, to my knowledge, no one has attempted to prohibit the citizens of Moldova from referring to it as such.
The Caucasian country of Georgia shares its name with a state in the southern US and a British island in the South Atlantic, and also uses symbols very similar to those used in England, with the result that a demonstration in Tblisi looks uncannily like a Manchester United football match. Neither the Americans nor the British appear to object to the Georgians referring to themselves as such (although in their own language, the latter use quite a different term).
Such anomalies do occasionally cause confusion, but this is a fact of life that most of the world has accepted, along with the principle of self-determination. I encourage our Greek colleagues to do the same.
Marc ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I have referred the recent comments on this thread | Sep 8, 2007 |
... to the moderator for this forum
| | | | | A short history of this issue | Sep 8, 2007 |
Dear Enrique,
I wish to point out some moments from the recent proz.com history in order to explain to all participants of this discussion how this all came:
Driven by the simple need to communicate with my colleagues who work with the language which on proz.com is designated as Macedonian, and as such included in my profile as one of my working languages I wondered why there was no space (forum or whatsoever) where I could post or read threads about and in the aforem... See more Dear Enrique,
I wish to point out some moments from the recent proz.com history in order to explain to all participants of this discussion how this all came:
Driven by the simple need to communicate with my colleagues who work with the language which on proz.com is designated as Macedonian, and as such included in my profile as one of my working languages I wondered why there was no space (forum or whatsoever) where I could post or read threads about and in the aforementioned language.
On 05.11.2006 I decided to follow the rules and ask for it by sending a support ticket to the proz.staff expressing the need in a Macedonian forum. The proz. staff member who handled my demand came to the conclusion that my support ticket had to be referred to you Enrique, being Community Manager.
Soon after that reached me your message stating that proz.com will publish a call for new volunteers, because in that time proz.com had no moderator for the new non-English forum, and for that reason it couldn't be founded.
I waited for months without receiving any signal that someone was working on the “case”.
For that reason I decided to call your attention by posting the thread http://www.proz.com/post/537974#537974 on proz.com. You will very well remember the “passionate” discussion inspired by that thread which you locked with the message: "This thread was opened asking for the creation of a particular forum. The request was noted and included in the to-do list, therefore the thread has fulfilled its mission and I am locking it.”
I decided to wait in the hope proz.com would take the necessary steps to meet my need part of the way. At least that’s what I expected because the issue was included in your to-do list.
Nevertheless, this issue had no sequel.
On 16.08.2007 I was looking for a Translation Association in Skopje. As I couldn’t find any reference on the web I decided to post a thread in Macedonian in the forum "Translators Associations" being more than sure that was the appropriate place to post threads about a translators association http://www.proz.com/post/644720#644720 and convinced that the use of a language from the proz.com languages list was legal and allowed.
Few minutes later my thread disappeared from the screen. Shortly after that you mailed me: "Could you please tell me what language you are writing in? The translators associations forum, like all general forums in the site, uses the English language.”
In my reply I explained the content of my thread and the reason why I posted it in Macedonian: because in the same “Translators Associations” forum was earlier posted a thread in Romanian, http://www.proz.com/topic/24485.
This was enough for you to approve my thread and make it visible. For this I thanked you.
On 24.08.2007 Patrick Doterrer announced the “partial releases of the localization into Hindi, Armenian, Macedonian, Slovenian and Bulgarian” (http://www.proz.com/topic/82096)
I was happy to read the news and expressed my wondering where the Macedonian forum was and where I could post threads in Macedonian, being one of the languages in which proz.com is (being) localized http://www.proz.com/post/652238#652238.
So you can imagine how glad I was when Said started his topic in the Bosnian forum http://www.proz.com/topic/82744. For the very first time in the history of proz.com it was mr. Said Kaljanac who “offered” himself to lead a search for a solution based on "linguistic" and no nationalist or political grounds. And that’s not all, because it was Said again who, for the first time in the proz.com history, offered to all interested Macedonian speaking members the opportunity to express their opinions in their own language.
Later on Said went a step further and opened his thread in English, giving that way the possibility to all concerned and interested parties to share their points of view in search for a solution which both concerned sides would back up, support and respect.
You know very well how the first part of that discussion went and how many times its participants risked to get stick in impasses. Said didn’t give up and continued his search for new arguments in order to find an acceptable compromise which would respect both concerned parties.
And finally, the compromise was reached: http://www.proz.com/post/663397#663397
During all this discussion we all wondered where the proz.staff was! I personally thought that you had authorized Said to negotiate this issue and find an acceptable solution which would have the full support of the proz.com management.
When you finally took the floor, after days of heavy discussion and exhausting efforts of all participants, and informed us that ProZ.com has the policy of using the ISO languages became clear that I was wrong in my idea about the behaviour of the proz.com management.
Let me put it straight and ask you the following:
1. Where were the proz.com staff members all these days since the beginning of the discussion?
2. If proz.com had a policy of using the ISO standard as you say why didn’t you tell that immediately in the thread http://www.proz.com/topic/68984 and save us all efforts which we apparently have made for something that already was “arranged”?
3. Where were all moderators and other proz.members during the discussion? Why didn’t they give their contribution and help us find a solution instead of waiting for the compromise and then attack it by all kind of arguments in the thread http://www.proz.com/topic/83234?
Kind Regards,
Sherefedin
P.S.
This is one more example that problems between communities in the Balkans shouldn’t be resolved by anybody else than by themselves.
Proz.com management would be proud to have moderators like Said who, once again, deserves its support rather than wise criticism after the event.
We still wait for the reply of Henry http://www.proz.com/topic/83197
[Edited at 2007-09-08 17:43] ▲ Collapse
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Marc P wrote:
On the contrary, everyone here does NOT "know and accept that this is the official name". This has been asserted repeatedly by our Greek colleagues, but it is simply not correct. The official name of the country which you refer to as "FYROM" is "Република Македонија", or in Latin script "Republika Makedonija".
Just to name a few:
Said wrote:
On the other hand the Macedonian community from Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, think of their own language and all related things to their Republic of Macedonia.
nordiste wrote: The European Union uses "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" for the country name and "Macedonian" for the language name. See http://publications.europa.eu/code/pdf/370000en.htm There are lots of other possibilities, but I think it should be safe to keep with EU, as the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has now been added to the list of the candidates countries.
amurati wrote:
Well I agree to other peoples that said that FYROM Macedonia is used widely as the country name by international agencies like UN, EU and language is called Macedonian.
Did you look at these sites??
http://www.iso.org/iso/about/iso_members.htm
http://www.eurunion.org/states/offices.htm
ISO does not know, European Union does not know, the United Nations don't know, but you know how this country is called OFFICIALLY?
3. Much has been said about Greek sensibilities, but given that Macedonia chose to gain independence from Yugoslavia, the term "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" is clearly offensive to Macedonians. The use of "FYROM" is directly equivalent to referring to Cyprus as "FBCOC" (Former British Colony of Cyprus).
This is a meaningless example.
6. The aspect which has been seriously overlooked here, and which in my opinion is the crucial one, is that of self-determination. The issue is being presented as a difference of opinion between the Greek and Macedonian camps, for which a compromise should be sought. However, what a country calls itself, and how members of a language community refer to their own language, is their own business, and not a matter of compromise. An attempt to dictate to another country or language community what it should call itself is unwarranted interference.
This is pure politics. A country may indeed call itself as it likes, but the OFFICIAL name is used.
It has been said here that ISO is a respectable independent organization and as Said said:
ISO proposes it the way it proposes it and it explains why it proposes it the way it proposes it: international and local publications, dictionaries, literature, etc.
VERY IMPORTANT: if a change has to be done on ISO, it is always possible, but then you have to provide all the serious arguments to base your propositions and to change the ISO denomination. ISO is updated on the regular basis and is open to all, so it shouldn't be a problem.
So, please it or not, this as neutral as possible organism may not suit some, but at least it has the merit to be non political and unbiased. So either we deny this or we use what Council of Europe proposes? Keep in mind that this latter is undeniably more political than ISO.
Kind regards,
Dimitra
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Nick Lingris
United Kingdom
Local time: 03:11
Member (2006)
English to Greek
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| The right to freedom extends only to the point at which the rights of other people are not infringed | Sep 8, 2007 |
I agree with Marc that FYROM is a stupid name for a state that has been an independent republic for sixteen years. It is the result of the inability of the governments of the two states to reach a solution. Many mistakes were made by both sides involved: it was a mistake on the part of the Greeks when they did not want any mention of ‘Macedonia’ in the name of the new republic. I am one of those who fought the Greek government’s policy of that time.
However, since the principl... See more I agree with Marc that FYROM is a stupid name for a state that has been an independent republic for sixteen years. It is the result of the inability of the governments of the two states to reach a solution. Many mistakes were made by both sides involved: it was a mistake on the part of the Greeks when they did not want any mention of ‘Macedonia’ in the name of the new republic. I am one of those who fought the Greek government’s policy of that time.
However, since the principle of self-determination has been mentioned, I must point out that we would be stirring up a hornet’s nest if we were to start a discussion on this principle. Let me remind you that the much higher and universal right to freedom states that it should extend only to the point at which the rights of other people are not infringed.
The examples of Ireland and Moldova are irrelevant in this discussion as they are issues that have been resolved in one way or the other. However, since they have been mentioned, let me point out that both the Republic of Ireland and the Republic of Moldova are the bigger parts in the island of Ireland and the region of Moldavia respectively. The Republic of Macedonia / FYROM is the smaller part of the region of Macedonia (and there is not as much distance between them as between Georgia, U.S., and Georgia on the Black Sea). In addition, the issue of the name of the Republic remains unresolved. While it remains unresolved, within international organizations where both states participate, provisional measures are taken. ProZ.com is an international community and the sensibilities of the members of both nationalities should be taken into consideration. Let’s try to do this in a clever way and with as little acrimony as possible. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I agree with Sherefedin's questions... | Sep 8, 2007 |
Sherefedin MUSTAFA wrote: 1. Where were the proz.com staff all these days since the beginning of the discussion? 2. If proz.com had a policy of using the ISO standard as you say why didn’t you tell that immediately in the thread http://www.proz.com/topic/68984 and save us all efforts which we apparently have made for something that already was “arranged”? 3. Where were all moderators and other proz.members during the discussion? Why didn’t they give their contribution and help us find a solution instead of waiting for the compromise and then attack it by all kind of arguments in the thread http://www.proz.com/topic/83234? Kind Regards, Sherefedin
... and expect the replies as well.
Best regards,
Dimitra
| | | | skazakis
Local time: 05:11
English to Greek
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| Same rules, everywhere | Sep 8, 2007 |
First of all, thank you Sherefedin for telling the story from the beginning. It is self-evident that colleagues translating into and from Macedonian (as ISO puts it), no matter how many of them are registered with proz.com, should have a forum in their own language, if they want to. It is only fair that the same options should be given to those having Macedonian in their offered pairs (I don't know and it doesn't matter how many they are).
It is only fair that the same rules apply ... See more First of all, thank you Sherefedin for telling the story from the beginning. It is self-evident that colleagues translating into and from Macedonian (as ISO puts it), no matter how many of them are registered with proz.com, should have a forum in their own language, if they want to. It is only fair that the same options should be given to those having Macedonian in their offered pairs (I don't know and it doesn't matter how many they are).
It is only fair that the same rules apply everywhere, on everything and for everybody. Rules should not be bent on a per-case basis. On one of my posts (Sep 6), I said that if ISO is applied everywhere else, then it should also be applied on the name of the forum. That's what is fair.
A little later Said proposed his long sought-for aspirine and we all agreed to it. The extra bonus of Said's solution is its educational aspect, as Nick pointed out.
Then Enrique joined the discussion. I will not comment on the timing, because I assume he is working for proz.com on a voluntary basis and he has other things to do in order to make a living. I also assume he prioritizes his time and considers this issue of low priority.
To conclude: I agree with earlier posts and I think that applying the ISO rule on the name of the forum but not on the name of the country is not fair. It certainly creates a sense of injustice to the Greek members of the community.
Therefore, I would expect:
- the country name for colleagues living in, say, Skopje to become FYROM, according to ISO rules
- the forum name to be Macedonian, including the note, according to ISO rules
- the localization name (at the bottom of each proz.com page) to become македонски instead of Macedonian, just like Ελληνικά, français, ქართული, etc. according to proz.com etiquette.
Nothing less would be fair.
Sakis
p.s. I was also under the impression that Said had the authorization to moderate this thread and reach a solution/compromise.
[Edited at 2007-09-08 19:34] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | just to clarify... | Sep 8, 2007 |
Sakis Kazakis wrote:
- the country name for colleagues living in, say, Skopje to become FYROM, according to ISO rules
I would like to point out that in no case can I accept you do not showing any respect and calling my country Skopje (clarification: Skopje - the capital of Republic of Macedonia).
As fas as I remember, this thread was started in order to discuss the name of the Macedonian forum and not my country's name.
Sakis Kazakis wrote:
- the localization name (at the bottom of each proz.com page) to become македонски instead of Macedonian, just like Ελληνικά, français, ქართული, etc. according to proz.com etiquette.
I do not mind the idea of appearing македонски at the bottom of the page, concerning the localization of proz, although it was announced as localization into Macedonian (the English version).
I totally agree with Sherefedin that
[/quote] Sherefedin MUSTAFA wrote:
Proz.com management would be proud to have moderators like Said who, once again, deserves its support rather than wise criticism after the event.
[/quote]
and would like to thank Said for being so patient with all of us and turning us back on the right track.
I would also like to mention Marc and thank him for being objective and speaking objectively, but, since this is a sensitive issue, some of the participants in this forum can not see and accept the truth (about the name of Republic of Macedonia and it being called FYROM because of the politics of their country).
[/quote] Sherefedin MUSTAFA wrote:
We still wait for the reply of Henry http://www.proz.com/topic/83197
[/quote]
As a member of the team who is currently working on the localaztion of ProZ into Macedonian language, I am still waiting for his reply and for our forum.
Kind regards,
Biljana Vasileva Bojcev
[Уредено на 2007-09-08 23:24]
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Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 22:11
Member (2000)
Greek to English
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| no disrespect | Sep 8, 2007 |
Biljana Vasileva Bojcev wrote: Sakis Kazakis wrote:
- the country name for colleagues living in, say, Skopje to become FYROM, according to ISO rules
I would like to point out that in no case can I accept you do not showing any respect and calling my country Skopje (clarification: Skopje - the capital of Republic of Macedonia).
Hi Biljana,
please read Sakis' post carefully; he's not calling your country Skopje. He writes "the country name for colleagues[...] to become FYROM", i.e. the name of the country is FYROM, not the name of its capital. He writes "living in, say, Skopje", in other words "living in, for example, Skopje". He is using Skopje is an example. Of course it is the capital, this is common knowledge. That's the last thing we should be arguing about at this point.
As fas as I remember, this thread was started in order to discuss the name of the Macedonian forum and not my country's name.
Sure, but is there a problem in discussing the name of the country as well? It turns out that the name of the country is very relevant in this case because we are talking about applying ISO standards consistently throughout the site. If you do not agree with this, please be so kind as to explain why.
Sakis Kazakis wrote:
- the localization name (at the bottom of each proz.com page) to become македонски instead of Macedonian, just like Ελληνικά, français, ქართული, etc. according to proz.com etiquette. I do not mind the idea of appearing македонски at the bottom of the page, concerning the localization of proz, although it was announced as localization into Macedonian (the English version).
It's not a question of minding, and the way that it was announced is not all that pertinent. 1) We are not choosing names for the various languages according to the way they were announced in a posting about localization. 2) That posting must have been written in English, was it not? I would not expect Patrick to write "The site has been localized in français". Of course he wrote "localized in French". But it says "français" at the bottom of the page. In short, it is simply a matter of consistency. If we are using "français" and not "French", we should also be using македонски. I don't think we should be making exceptions.
Maria
| | | | skazakis
Local time: 05:11
English to Greek
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| But, I didn't! | Sep 8, 2007 |
Dear Biljana,
please read more carefully what I wrote.
Thank you,
Sakis
[Edit] Exactly as Maria said, I used the name of the city as an example - not as the name of the country.
[Edited at 2007-09-08 23:59]
| | | | | A double headache - please don't ruin and drag our discussion into politics | Sep 9, 2007 |
Stop geopolitical issues, please. I know that the lastest decision isn't that easy to accept, but please do not fall into a trap of accusing each others. Both communities showed good will and agreed on something. What is happening now, isn't neither one's nor the other's choice. Remember it.
I have a double headache now.
All I know is that -earlier in this very thread- I'd already proposed ISO policy, but the Greek community didn't seem to like it. So I had taken it int... See more Stop geopolitical issues, please. I know that the lastest decision isn't that easy to accept, but please do not fall into a trap of accusing each others. Both communities showed good will and agreed on something. What is happening now, isn't neither one's nor the other's choice. Remember it.
I have a double headache now.
All I know is that -earlier in this very thread- I'd already proposed ISO policy, but the Greek community didn't seem to like it. So I had taken it into account and moved to something else.
If ISO policy were accepted, I am almost 90% sure that the FYROM community wouldn't have anything against the name Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia as a country name (maybe not as an acronym, but at least as a full name although it is long)
So as we were seeking for a compromise, I abandonned the idea of ISO and was trying to find something that could please all.
I suggested the language classifications with families headers. What I suggested was not made up, but classified by experts and linguists who have been studying and comparing languages and their families and subfamilies, not for years but for centuries.
Moreover, my classification was a rough copy which could have been discussed and re-organized. Indeed, given the fact that there are approximatively 50% of "INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGES" locutors, we could have simply classified the languages in two categories:
1) FAMILY: Indo-European
Subfamilies:
a) Germanic (German, Swedish, ...)
b) Romance (French, Spanish,...)
c) Slavic (Polish, Russian, ...)
2) OTHER LANGUAGES
Chinese
Japanese
Georgian
etc.
Again this is another draft copy.
Now I feel unconfortable, because first I had proposed ISO, then moved on something else, and finally here again ISO is proposed.
In another thread ( http://www.proz.com/topic/83234 ), when I read some proz members comments on my so called solution, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Some are trying to make a fool out of me when they start a conversation about linguistics without even having apparently studying it. Moreover, either they propose already proposed suggestions or criticize without giving any kind of solution.
I will not comment any more on attacks that I had in this other thread ( http://www.proz.com/topic/83234 ), but once again, I want you all to know that when I was posting the classification per branches I knew what I was doing, it was not made up. My suggestion unfortunately didn't pass.
All in all, do not go on with neverending geopolitical fight.
Earlier some tried to talk etymology in this site.
Here I have one for all of you:
INDO-EUROPEAN: source term ---> DEIWOS
translation target term:
Latin: DEUS
French: DIEU
Sanskrit: DEVAS
Old Irish: DIA
Old Islandic: TIVAR
Greek: T(h)EO
Avestic: DAEVO
Slavic: DJAVAO
English: DEAMON
Italian: DIAVOLO
French: DIABLE
Now can you imagine how many people speaking Indo-European languages prayin the same time to God and Devil without that they even know it.
This thread is the same:
It is up to you to choose which CONCEPT you are going to have in your head.
NB. None of the communities are neither devils nor gods, just bear in mind that concepts do not depend on communities but on individuals. Think about it twice and stop with nationalistic propaganda disguised into linguistic talks.
I hope I won't be misunderstood and I hope that all want happiness. This latter isn't beyond your reach if you, and only you decide what to do with your concept. I am repeating, it does not depend on one or another community.
Very best regards
[Edited at 2007-09-09 01:06] ▲ Collapse
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