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'[MT] is most often used alongside [TM] as an adjunct to human translation'. Are you using it?
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer

Lingua 5B  Identity Verified
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 15:55
Member (2009)
German to Serbian
+ ...
SVO, OVS, VSO Mar 16, 2009

Eric Hahn wrote:


Would you rely on a MT from Japanese or Chinese into English ? I don't think so. It may help to have a rough idea about the content, but translators still are more intelligent than machines. AI can handle the syntax, but not (yet) the semantics.


Yes indeed, imagine Japanese which has OVS structure vs English with SVO structure.

I think " John bought a house", in Japanese it would be " A house bought John" as a healthy sentence ( can some of the Japanese translators confirm this structure please? )


 

Philippe Etienne  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 15:55
Member
English to French
Some of my agency customers have used an MT/TM combination Mar 16, 2009

Subject: Online help
Usefulness: Effective (ie less time to market and cheaper) for large projects with an MT "training" phase.
Workflow: Pretranslation with MTed TM and work with human TM. Whichever better suggestion (MT or human TM if any) is retrieved and edited.

I don't personally use MT, but if I had a million words of online help and a 6-month leadtime, I would definitely buy serious MT software.

Kind regards,
Philippe


 

Eric Hahn (X)  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 15:55
French to German
+ ...
Seriously ? Mar 16, 2009

I know that Henkel in Düsseldorf tried to use Systran to translate chemical abstracts, reports and data sheets, but they stopped this experiment and fired most of their in-house translors. Since then, they outsource their translation work.

 

Nicholas Stedman  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 15:55
French to English
Always use it Mar 16, 2009

The use of translation memory (TM) by agencies is progressively robbing translators of all the added value of long hours of terminology search. The situation has escalated considerably over the last few years and the translator can now very rarely invoice for repeats. Basically on some jobs one seems to be filling in the gaps. The situation is so bad now that sometimes it seems a waste of time spending 15 minutes researching a term when you know that other people are going to get the benefit of ... See more
The use of translation memory (TM) by agencies is progressively robbing translators of all the added value of long hours of terminology search. The situation has escalated considerably over the last few years and the translator can now very rarely invoice for repeats. Basically on some jobs one seems to be filling in the gaps. The situation is so bad now that sometimes it seems a waste of time spending 15 minutes researching a term when you know that other people are going to get the benefit of your work rather than you. Please don't tell me that TM improves translation quality whereas machine translation reduces as in my opinion the opposite is true. A TM translation is like a table with 4 differently styled legs.

The big advantage of machine translation over TM is that is doesn't directly give a very good translation. It has to be edited by the translator him/herself so there is no way of you getting robbed of your work. You always have complete control. Intelligent use of MT however can save you as much time as TM. It has to be used as part of an expert system that you develop yourself over time. Over the last 4 years I have continually refined my system as I translate. I would say that it improves my output by between 15 and 50%. You also get to know your system and recognise the charming mistakes it makes!

[Edited at 2009-03-16 18:13 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-03-16 18:18 GMT]
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Sergei Leshchinsky  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 16:55
Member (2008)
English to Russian
+ ...
Sometimes... from agencies Mar 16, 2009

Philippe Etienne wrote:
Some of my agency customers have used an MT/TM combination


I sometimes get pre-translated (MT) help and knowledge-base files. Then I work with a human TM and thus reload modified TUs from MT to TM. It does not save much time, but it is good when "well trained", i.e. not on the first project in a series, but... after a year of translating help files for the same software package...

Another side of the issue, which is good and time-saving, is to provide terminology already inside the TU.

Large companies (clients) do it this way sometimes. The MT translation itself is awful, but you get a good list of terms. Less concordance and terminology-base search...

Of course, in case, the MT-generated TUs are paid as no-match...

[Редактировалось 2009-03-16 18:20 GMT]


 

Henry Dotterer
Local time: 09:55
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Questions for NR_Stedman Mar 16, 2009

NR_Stedman wrote:
... Intelligent use of MT however can save you as much time as TM. It has to be used as part of an expert system that you develop yourself over time. Over the last 4 years I have continually refined my system as I translate. I would say that it improves my output by between 15 and 50%. You also get to know your system and recognise the charming mistakes it makes!

Am I correct in understanding that you have purchased an MT system of some sort and that you have been training it somehow for your particular work? Do you mind sharing the particular software?


 

Nicholas Stedman  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 15:55
French to English
There are (were) two competing systems Mar 16, 2009

[ Do you mind sharing the particular software?
[/quote]
Jeff Allen who is a recognized expert on MT helped me make my choice in 2005. There were then two competing systems, Reverso and Systran. The best thing is to try them both out on the work you do and see which one suits you best. The important thing is to buy the most expensive versions with the expert coding systems which allow you to program everything yourself. Basically each type of document has to have its own home-brew di
... See more
[ Do you mind sharing the particular software?
[/quote]
Jeff Allen who is a recognized expert on MT helped me make my choice in 2005. There were then two competing systems, Reverso and Systran. The best thing is to try them both out on the work you do and see which one suits you best. The important thing is to buy the most expensive versions with the expert coding systems which allow you to program everything yourself. Basically each type of document has to have its own home-brew dictionary/grammar rules. You have to enter ALL the vocabulary yourself. That is why people get such a poor impression of MT when they use it for the first time. Dictionaries can include long sequences with certain key verbs or nouns that can be declined to save repeat entries. They also have a context function which means that the translation automatically changes according to context .

MT is obviously good for long lists, short sentances, tables etc. It also prevents you from missing things in the original (long lists of adjectives) and making mistakes about negatives/postives etc. It can also be used to immediately translate any group of words that you choose with a click of the mouse, so for that for instance I now never have to type a sequence such as "transfer to a 1OOO-ml long-necked, ground-glass stoppered flask" or "randomized, double-blind, multicentre, placebo-controlled trial of efficacy and safety in patients"
Another useful thing is to immediately update your system each time you see a good translation, or new terminology. Then a year later when you have forgotten about it, you program suddenly does something wonderful. There is so much invention in american science and terminology. Any time I see something creative I enter in my MT and then I find myself automatically using it.


[Edited at 2009-03-16 19:20 GMT]

[Edited at 2009-03-16 20:05 GMT]
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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 09:55
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks, NR_Stedman! Mar 16, 2009

NR_Stedman wrote:
Do you mind sharing the particular software?

Jeff Allen who is a recognized expert on MT helped me make my choice in 2005. There were then two competing systems, Reverso and Systran. The best thing is to try them both out on the work you do and see which one suits you best. The important thing is to buy the most expensive versions with the expert coding systems which allow you to program everything yourself. Basically each type of document has to have its own home-brew dictionary/grammar rules. You have to enter ALL the vocabulary yourself. That is why people get such a poor impression of MT when they use it for the first time. Dictionaries can include long sequences with certain key verbs or nouns that can be declined to save repeat entries.
MT is obviously good for long lists, short phrases, tables etc. It also prevents you form missing things in the original (long lists of adjectives) and making mistakes about negatives/postives etc. It can also be used to immediately translate any group of words that you choose with a click of the mouse, so for that for instance I now never have to type a sequence such as "1OOO-ml long-necked, ground-glass stoppered flask" or "randomized, double-blind, multicentre, placebo-controlled trial"

Thanks for the info! I know Jeff Allen writes quite a bit online. Is there a link that was particularly helpful to you on this topic?


 

Uwe Schwenk (X)
United States
Local time: 08:55
English to German
MT Question Mar 16, 2009

Here is a link to a discussion where I described my workflow in 2001. Its still the same and I am still using it. The only difference is that I am not using Trados anymore.

http://www.proz.com/forum/translation_theory_and_practice/98-machine_translation_anyone_using_it_successfully.html

Uwe

... See more
Here is a link to a discussion where I described my workflow in 2001. Its still the same and I am still using it. The only difference is that I am not using Trados anymore.

http://www.proz.com/forum/translation_theory_and_practice/98-machine_translation_anyone_using_it_successfully.html

Uwe

[Bearbeitet am 2009-03-16 20:34 GMT]
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Parrot  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 15:55
Member
Spanish to English
+ ...
Nothing that updated Mar 17, 2009

I was still working in-house for a financial company when my bosses bought an MT to stand in for me. My interpreting tasks were taking me out of the office too often (that coincided with the Seville Expo of 92, to give you an idea of when) and the financial contracts kept on coming in. According to them, all they needed was a secretary to key in the text to be translated. The program would produce a document they could work on at meetings (to be perfectly honest, such documents were "fun" for th... See more
I was still working in-house for a financial company when my bosses bought an MT to stand in for me. My interpreting tasks were taking me out of the office too often (that coincided with the Seville Expo of 92, to give you an idea of when) and the financial contracts kept on coming in. According to them, all they needed was a secretary to key in the text to be translated. The program would produce a document they could work on at meetings (to be perfectly honest, such documents were "fun" for them because they played a kind of spot-the-error game and had clauses clarified over the phone), and after that they would leave the paper on my desk to edit. All in all, it was less time-consuming to translate them all over.

I've never thought about risking my legal clients this way. I'm already wary of TMs as things stand, but they do help when you're working with teams and a legal case has already lasted several months and accumulated a history in terms of vocabulary. MTs are more quirky and -- I imagine -- might work more with controlled laboratory language (like the kind you use for language cognition testing in animals).
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esperantisto  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:55
Member (2006)
English to Russian
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
It does not Mar 17, 2009

NR_Stedman wrote:

It also prevents you from … making mistakes about negatives/postives etc.


I have seen cases, when a MT program (namely, Promt) dropped negations, reversing the sense of a sentence.


 

Nikki Graham  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:55
Member (2003)
Spanish to English
Once, recently Mar 17, 2009

I was given a very simple project to translate (doesn't happen very often) with no technical or difficult terms involved (all vocabulary, except for one or two words, could be found in any standard Spanish to English dictionary), and short sentences, so I decided to try MT to see whether it would save typing time, as I am not a fast typist and find that part of the translation process quite laborious.

The MT did actually come up with some "perfect" sentences, although they were few
... See more
I was given a very simple project to translate (doesn't happen very often) with no technical or difficult terms involved (all vocabulary, except for one or two words, could be found in any standard Spanish to English dictionary), and short sentences, so I decided to try MT to see whether it would save typing time, as I am not a fast typist and find that part of the translation process quite laborious.

The MT did actually come up with some "perfect" sentences, although they were few and far between. However, the source text did have quite a few spelling and grammatical errors, which, of course, the MT couldn't cope with at all, and those sentences were mostly totally unusable. I could have corrected the Spanish, I suppose, but that would have defeated the object of saving me time. In the end, despite the simplicity of the text, I probably used less than 50% of the MT output. Consequently, I don't think I will be using MT for the vast majority of the texts I translate, as they are generally far more complicated, although the use of MT for this particular project did save typing time and gave me a few ideas I would otherwise probably not have thought of.
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Eric Hahn (X)  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 15:55
French to German
+ ...
Major breakthrough in AI ? Mar 17, 2009

The recent edition of the Translorial (NCTA's newsletter) also says:
"Many professional translators are already being introduced every day to machine translation in their regular work via SDL Trados’s embedded new MT features."


If this is true, the use of MT is already widespread !

But if you work and think like a robot, it means that you can easily be replaced by a robot. In Japan for example, robots could fill the jobs of 3.5 million people by 2025. And thanks to major breakthroughs in IA, these jobs become more and more sophisticated: Now that we got the first multilingual robot teacher, it's only a matter of time until the development of the first robot translator.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8RsUxy00uA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saAIp2A3jeo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saAIp2A3jeo&NR=1

[Edited at 2009-03-17 12:23 GMT]


 

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:55
Member (2004)
English to Italian
sometimes... Mar 17, 2009

recently, I tried SDL's automated translation feature available in Workbench (8.3.0.863 - Build 863) for a repetitive technical manual. I was quite surprised. Sometimes (admittedly not many) the translation would be perfect, other times I had to edit it (a bit or heavily), many times it was useless, but I believe I saved some time by using it. The terminology was correct in some instances... It can be useful along your TM...

G


 

Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 15:55
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
SITE LOCALIZER
I don't, but... Mar 17, 2009

Henry D wrote:
I wonder: how many of you are using MT now, alongside TM, in your work?


I don't, but the reason is that good MT isn't really available in my language pair. If it were available, I might experiment with it for financial texts.


 
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